Duration of Zhan Zhuang

[Inner_man]

Just out of curiosity what do you guys think you gain from doing long standing sessions? I'd like to have some examples of specific gains in ability which people directly attribute to standing practice. For those that stand longer than say 20mins what do you think you gain from standing longer? Josefreitas gave a good answer but surely there are other reasons, even if its just "because sifu says so" I'd like to know.

Personally I don't think holding any one stance longer than 15-20 mins is going to develop any further physical or structural benefit so long as you are doing the stance correctly and if you aren't then long periods of standing is going to mess you up anyway. I do think occasional longer sessions may have other benefits in other areas.

My usual standing will be various postures including san-ti-shi, chicken step, all wu xing san-ti postures, different weight distributions including 100:0, until it starts to shake, hold it for one minute longer or until I feel definite muscular tension and then switch sides. Average time for me will be 5 to 10 minutes in each posture on each side maybe dong 3/4 postures so all in all about 30-40minutes if I have time. I try to do at least some each day but inevitably I don't get time to train each and every day. I usually end up doing a bit of standing in the toilets of my office during my lunch break because I don't get much other chance throughout the day.

I only very rarely do standing training in class and only very rarely make my students (who are all beginners) do it in class, if we do its usualy for about a minute or two on each side of a stance. I see this as a persona/own timel training exercise because I'd rather be teaching or training actual Xing Yi in class as opposed to standing around. I don't charge for classes and my teacher doesn't either but I think I'd get a bit pissed off after a maybe a month if I paid for classes and my teacher made me stand there doing bugger all for the majority of the lesson.

and we should never train unless prepared with Zhan Zhuang 1st.

Why?

bsolute noobs start at about 3-5 breaths per side for no longer than 10mins

Man you guys must be hardcore, absolute noobs who can go for ten minutes on 3 breaths! I can hold my breath for about 2-3minutes if I need to but that's not really natural breathing. I'm only poking a bit of fun, but really how long is 3-5 breaths? I've just tried to count while I do a deep natural breath and inhale and exhale took about 15-20seconds so max 10 seconds in and 10 seconds out, 3 breaths would be 1minute.

WHY?? - Neigong development connecting the inner and the outer. Collect chi to the dantien and then practise drills/forms etc. Shifu is quite clear that just training the forms without 1st starting from a full belly of chi will just develop weigong or muscular only. I have to agree from my own experience. I find my training is completely different if I dont stand/prepare and fill the chi tank (so to speak) 1st.

We start with ZZ 1st to cultivate and fill up the tank with Chi (well as much as possible anyway). So drills and form training always start from a full chi tank. Ive missed (bypassed) standing 1st on ocassions and my training has always been of lower quality and less fulfilling when I do this IMO. Shifu is very insistent that not starting with standing means your training session will only develop the external. Standing gives you he tools to connect the heart-mind etc and start from a fixed point ea session. Mind must be relaxed and connected to whatever you are training esp so in this game.

Yeh Shifu holds breath for 20-30mins (its true really). Noobs do 3-5 breaths in Santi then change legs keep repeating swapping legs up to 10mins. Its not designed to break anyone, just introduce students to leg work, breathing and developing center and all that. Yep noobs start with rapid breathing, so 30-60sec per side is realistic in the beginning.

I dont believe in regular super long standing sessions, the whole point is to develop skill (int.l and ext.l) with heart rate and breathing under control and not training in your anerobic zone. This doesnt mean you cant pop the Hrate and breathing up, but they shouldnt be sustained at elevated levels for long.
Also I understand that too much internal stress is not a good thing and its ok to test yourself on occasions but the key is to develop repeatable centered skill so regular super long sessions are not in our program.

Some of us come early to class (Shifus home) and prep by standing - he comes out to teach when where halfway through standing and corrects postural and other errors where required. I consider the standing worth paying for as I consider it so important.

[zenshiite]

Zenshiite: one exhalation/inhalation in 2 seconds? Did you get it wrong, isn't it 20 secs? It sounds as if you're breathing damn fast, if you want my opinion!

I would imagine that has alot to do with how long you've been doing it and individual capacity. I don't have that kind of capacity, firstly, and secondly, my Shrfu didn't instruct me to hold breath while doing ZZ.

Maybe I am breathing fast, at least for what you're talking about, but it sure as shit ain't hyperventilating.

[jjy5016]

I was taught to do an hour minimum at the onset of training. The most important part of the standing was to bear through the thundering, bouncing & shaking because this was when the changes in the body took place. Some have said that after many years not as much standing was necessary to get results but I haven't gotten to that point yet and I've done standing since 1991.

There are different types of standing so the results will differ with the different types.

The holding of the breath for long periods has always fascinated me. Never learned how to do it though. I can only hold mine for about a minute. Is there a specific way of practicing this or is it just to actually do it and build up time?

[GrahamB]

I don't believe people can hold their breath for 20-30 minutes. I'm not drinking that kool-aid.

Static apnea world records:

Static Apnea (STA)
Men
10 min 12 sec
Name: Tom SIETAS
Date: 2008-06-07
Place: Athens, Greece

Women
8 min 00 sec
Name: Natalia MOLCHANOVA
Date: 2007-07-06
Place: Maribor, Slovenia

[edededed]

What do people have against Kool-Aid, anyway?

[GrahamB]

What do people have against Kool-Aid, anyway?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kool-Aid#. ... ool-Aid.22

[edededed]

Ah - guess I missed that whole debacle...

[Pandrews1982]

Neigong development connecting the inner and the outer. Collect chi to the dantien and then practise drills/forms etc. Shifu is quite clear that just training the forms without 1st starting from a full belly of chi will just develop weigong or muscular only. I have to agree from my own experience. I find my training is completely different if I dont stand/prepare and fill the chi tank (so to speak) 1st.

I don't use the dan tien in my xing yi no need to fill the tank I've got a solar panel in the solar plexus constant refueling baby! Plus I don't have to push from the ground so I'm fuel efficient too

I find that doing an hour of standing as someone tries to attack you doesn't really work out so well they've usually mugged you before you've taken the fuel cap off to fill up.

Again i'm just yanking your chain but seriously if you can use Xing Yi as a combat art effectively there should not be any need to "fill up" before you use it. No doubt your way fo training is one way of getting to the same point but i think its a bit misleading.

Shifu is very insistent that not starting with standing means your training session will only develop the external.

Fair enough if this is how your teacher does things. What's wrong with external though? You need the external to be able to channel the internal or in terms people like to use on EF external type training relates to Ming jin, strategy to An Jin and internal to Hua Jin. Trying to do the internal without the base of the external means you're missing a trick. People here have said they have practiced the ming jin stage of xing yi for years first. Do you need internal power if you have a knife or sword or spear to use it effectively? What's the big thing in needing to have a nuclear reactor of a dan tien before you can fight?

Standing gives you he tools to connect the heart-mind etc and start from a fixed point ea session. Mind must be relaxed and connected to whatever you are training esp so in this game

Won't argue on this point, i agree standing helps to develop a state of mind which is benefitial. However the aim should be to be able to "switch on" this state of mind instantly at any moment not need to stand about for half an hour hoping a state of mind will come along.

Yeh Shifu holds breath for 20-30mins (its true really).

You got a video of this? See graham's post above, shouldn't your teacher be in the Guinness Book of Records?

Don't really get the ultra slow breathing thing. I breath deeply and regularly keeping calm and focused but maybe I'm actually hyperventilating and don't know what I'm talking about?

Some have said that after many years not as much standing was necessary to get results but I haven't gotten to that point yet and I've done standing since 1991.

You've done standing for 17 years and haven't had any major progression in this area. Doesn't that tell you something? Just playing devils advocate here but does this not suggest one of two options:

a) you're doing it wrong
b) its not all it cracked up to be

If something does not have practicable results after so long you've got to have some doubts. If something doesn't work for me I don't do it, I'll give it a good chance to work, probably really test it over a longer period of time than i really need to and maybe I'll come back to it later when i understand it better but if it isn't going to help me and waste my time then I will stop doing it or do it differently.

Personally I don't believe all of the hype, some it I can believe but a lot of it to me whiffs of cowpat. Standing is good for you but standing for long periods as the only way to develop internal power, give me a break. Maybe its the state of mind and breathing which is helping to develop the internal power, if so then can't this be done moving, or maybe sitting?

You can get many of the results of standing practice through the practice of XIng Yi anyway. I liked joseFreitas' answer which said that they do standing for a long time in order to be able to do the actual practice without feeling tense or tired etc. This is a good practical explanation with real benefit. I agree wholehartedly with this. the standing is a means to an ends.

I have no fear in saying that standing is benefitial and actually I think it is important but i think too many people put too much emphasis on it and too much emphasis on it for the wrong reasons too. I think a lot of this is to do with cultural and historical hang ups which have been passed down the generations.

1. traditionally a student is a big investment in time and effort, if they bugger off after a few months or a year then master has just wasted a year of his time on an arsewipe. To separate the wheat from the chaff so to say why not treat your beginners a bit harshly, make them stand for long periods, tell them to do something and then wander off leaving them on their own for long periods with menial tasks to do, make them do repetative, boring and harsh tasks, make them feel like you don't give a damn about teaching them anything at all. Those that stick it out are the keepers and they can come inside and rest their burning calves and maybe take a breath every 10 seconds instead of every half an hour. Actual skill learnt by the student during the "initiation period", next to nothing but at least they are now a bit tougher and will be able to take the rigors of training hard.
2. Daoist bullshit. Lots of early xing yi guys would have been poor, working class, fighting men, not too bothered about going to the temple or doing ritualised, organised religious practice, I guess its the same today in many remote areas. I doubt many were officially daoist or buddhist and were probably linked more to local folk traditions, animism, shamanism etc. Big influence of daoism in Xing Yi as far as i'm aware came around the late 1800s/1900s and onwards, lots of styles were mixing, people were becoming urbanised, ideas travelling and so on. Guys like Sun Lu Tang openly recorded that they went on journeys to look for daoist practices and added tai chi, bagua and other principles to their xing yi. So all this dan tien, qi, develop mystic powers stuff was more emphasised after this period (IMO). These days westerners lap this stuff up, so why change the tune when you have a class of young rich westerners willing to give you money because you're talking about these wierd new age concepts like spinal waves and rolling your dan tien and so on.
3. Ego, exageration, and marketing. Sifu X can stand for 16 hours and hold his breath for 10 hours so must be the greatest so train with him. Hold on though Master Y can stand for 16 hours and three seconds and hold his breath of 13 hours so go train with him. etc. There are loads of stories of guys training only standing for years without any other training but when you look closer you might find that there are discrepencies, people who stood for three years and were later famous masters may have only trained with someone for 4/5 years or so where did they get their other skills in an art which takes years to master? A lot of these guys were bodyguards, caravan escorts, fighters, people who would want at least some imediate or quick results not years of doing bugger all when the shaolin guys and other external guys could kick their arse anytime they wanted. Stories and exagerations have been believed by some and then this ignorance has been passed down the generations so that now to be good at anything you have to be able to stand for an hour in san-ti and kill and guy with a finger poke. I'd rather be able to stand in san-ti for ten minutes, break the other guy's finger and crush their kidneys with a good solid beng. Where's your qi gone when you're pissing blood for a week?
4. Unscrupious teachers. Not saying that all teachers make people stand for long periods because they are trying to draw out their practice for monetary gain or because they are sadistic or because they don't know as much as they make out so try to keep people doing basic stuff etc. no doubt there are teachers like this out there.
5. Some people do lots of standing as well as regular practice of other things. When they progress then they attribute it to standing because those other things like drilling Wu Xing movements or doing loads of applications or whatever surely can't develop internal energy because you are just doing normal practice and its not esoteric! People think they are getting loads of benefits out of standing for ages each day but in fact maybe only 10 minutes would be enough.

A lot of what I have experienced in using energy has not come from standing, its come from moving, standing has given me a better frame to work with and its helpped in some ways but its not the be all and end all fo Xing Yi training by far.

Anyway you can call me a cynic or a skeptic, I'll do my thing and you do yours and everyone will be happy. Those are my two pence worth and I'm going to leave it at that.

[GrahamB]

P, you're talking too much sense. They're not going to like it.

Incidentally I was a bit tired, so I did standing practice while watching an episode of series 3 of Heroes last night - I felt like I could climb up a mountain afterwards. That's the kind of practical benefit I like.

[jjy5016]

You've done standing for 17 years and haven't had any major progression in this area. Doesn't that tell you something? Just playing devils advocate here but does this not suggest one of two options:

a) you're doing it wrong
b) its not all it cracked up to be

What it suggests to me is that you are trying to be a condescending asshole.

Get over yourself. I never tried to progress at the "holding my breath gong". I don't spend too much time under water. Never was told by any of my teachers to hold the breath either. Was always told not to hold the breath. Only read about it an some obscure taoist text that was probably translated wrong in the first place.

I've gotten very good results from standing over the years. As I said, there are many different methods of standing which produce different results. Who said that standing was the only way to develop internal power? Certainly not me. But then you probably haven't been exposed to the type of standing that I have.

[Sprint]

PAndrews

Skeptics have open minds - it's kind of how they can be skeptical. You on the other hand have a closed mind. You are scornful of the opinions of others and even though you argue from a position of ignorance (because you don't understand zhan zhuang) you still feel quite happy to lecture everyone about what ZZ is and is not. You sound like a fool.

[Pandrews1982]

You are scornful of the opinions of others and even though you argue from a position of ignorance (because you don't understand zhan zhuang) you still feel quite happy to lecture everyone about what ZZ is and is not. You sound like a fool.

Sprint thanks for the intelligent input the words pot and kettle spring to mind.

OKay, maybe I came off looking like an arsehole, that wasn't my intention, I have some strong views and I apologise for bruising some egos.

JJY the holding the breath thing I'm completely dubious of I have no idea how this would work and that wasn't directed at you. The standing since 1991 comment implied to me that you've done 17 years and had no progress. You say you get benefits from it I assume you mean in terms of internal development, so what are they? And why do you fell still need to stand for so long anyway? Give me some context and I might understand you better.

My view is standing in a posture by itself isn't going to make you a good fighter or good at xing yi. If you stand all day will you somehow be able to punch through someone's chest and rip out their heart because you've got some "internal power"? I don't think so. So why do the majority of you guys think that standing will give you uber-qi powers? convince me why don't you? Or what does your standing do to make your uber-qi power?

There's lots of "I've done this for X year s and stand so long and it gives me all this qi" but why? What do you do with the qi after you've stood around for a bit? How does standing still develop the qi generation/storage process? in fact what the hell do you guys think qi is? If I don't do standing for a week will I lose my qi? Will I no longer be able to fight or train correctly because I haven't stood for an hour? Tell me.

I've said in each of my posts that I do think there are benefits to standing and I do in fact do standing mysel, hell occasionally I'll stand for long periods such as when waiting for girlfriend to ocme out of fitting room. Bu if all you can give me is "it develops internal energy" then am I going to take you on your word without any justifiable results? I'd much rather do an hour with my heavy spear and develop my internal energy that way than stand for an hour, but then I don't understand zhan zhuang and you guys are in the members club and wont tell me your secrets.

If you can convince me otherwise please do so I am in fact open to your reasoning but so far very few responses have given any details of what benefits standing has given them, specifically how standing has produced those benefits, and how those benefits have been transfered directly into combat applications.

Part of me says why bother asking this stuff because we are obviously coming from such different viewpoints but I am interested in this subject and want to know more.

[Inner_man]

To everyone who believes my Shifu can hold his breath for 20-30mins.. come on get over yerselves (sooooooooooooooooooooooo serious) its a joke nothing more, it was never intended to be serious. Its a physiological impossibility.

I thought EF had a sense of humour... looks like I was wrong.

Well done.

To get back on track and Ill make it easy on yer (Im not going to make a joke OK??? if it helps) Standing alone wont give you fighting skill but it is an important part of neigong development. I absolutely feel it filling my tank and gives me a completely satisfying training session as the jings feel completely different from when I dont stand 1st.

And then I go and throw it all away with a quick wank in the corner. Oh christ there I go again.. another joke WTF is wrong with me (actually it wasnt a joke, yes it was, no it wasnt.............) I tell yer youre never alone with schizophrenia

[jjy5016]

Pandrews you aren't bruising egos, at least not mine. If you read my post properly you'd see I meant that the 17 years of standing did not afford me the ability to hold my breath for 20 - 30 minutes. I have gained some other benefits though.

Forget about qi because there are more types and definitions than I care to think of. Some of the benefits/skills the zhan zhuang methods that we practice provide are a very strong frame, or the "hsing" in hsing yi quan. Another is the method of exerting force, or fa jing. Another is connectivity throughout the body so the force can travel through it like a wave and not get stuck in any particular part before reaching the target. Still another provides the same results as shaolin's yi jin ching exercises. Another is issuing power in a very short, almost undetectable distance. I could go on but don't feel the need.

Proper zhan zhuang entails much more than just copying a posture that a teacher demonstrates and then standing in it for a certain period of time. Much much more. So don't knock it until you've given it a serious try for a good amount of time.

small John

[qiphlow]

i fear you're wasting your words on that guy, john. his mind's made up already.