Meridians related to movements/postures in taijiquan

[Miro]

Hi guys,

I have a question for those who can feel and actively work with flow of qi in your body and especially for those who can "activate" ("turn on" and "turn off" by will) particular meridians. The question is - how do you work with meridians in taiji? I mean, how do you decide which meridian you activate in particular posture or movement during taiji practice? Why exactly this meridian and not some meridian nearby? Of course, the simple answer is "just feel it", but... For example, peng posture/movement is related to large intestine meridian (here the answer is simple also because your index finger says so) but sometimes the answer is not so obvious. For example, which meridian is used in lu (roll-back in peng-lu-ji-an)? Pericard? Heart? Lungs? Or all three? Or do you start for example with pericard and finish with heart meridian? Also, do you activate more meridians at the same time? For example, when you do lu, do you activate (besides yin meridians of lungs, pericard and heart of arms) also meridians of legs (in this case probably spleen, kidney, liver)? If yes, which meridian of the leg do you activate? One of them, all three? Why?
Any personal know-how, experience, explanations, literature etc. is greatly appreciated. So far, I was able to find (by quick searching) only this:
http://polariswushu.net/blog/2012/02/02 ... functions/

Miro

[Miro]

In other words, I am looking for logical and coherent system of working with all meridians in taijiquan (if there is any complete system in taijiquan) exactly as it is in baguaquan as well as in some forms of qigong, for example baduanjin. Thanks.

Best wishes
Miro

[Bao]

I wouldn't go so far to say that the tai chi movements are designed for specific meridians. Different styles and lineages have quite different interpretations on the execution of the movements.

But if you want, you can have a look at books by Liu Da. I believe that Taoist Health Exercise book is very interesting in the context and there are some explanations of Tai Chi movements from a TCM POV. He propose a method of following the path of the meridians using the mind to strengthen and balance the qi in the meridians. It can be used for standing meditation and slow Tai Chi movement practice as well.

http://www.amazon.com/Taoist-Health-Exe ... op?ie=UTF8

[XiaoXiong]

See anatomy trains by Thomas Myers. Very detailed descriptions of the myofascial meridians and branches. Not usage however.
Jess

[windwalker]

Hi guys,

I have a question for those who can feel and actively work with flow of qi in your body and especially for those who can "activate" ("turn on" and "turn off" by will) particular meridians. The question is - how do you work with meridians in taiji? I mean, how do you decide which meridian you activate in particular posture or movement during taiji practice? Why exactly this meridian and not some meridian nearby? Of course, the simple answer is "just feel it", but... For example, peng posture/movement is related to large intestine meridian (here the answer is simple also because your index finger says so) but sometimes the answer is not so obvious. For example, which meridian is used in lu (roll-back in peng-lu-ji-an)? Pericard? Heart? Lungs? Or all three? Or do you start for example with pericard and finish with heart meridian? Also, do you activate more meridians at the same time? For example, when you do lu, do you activate (besides yin meridians of lungs, pericard and heart of arms) also meridians of legs (in this case probably spleen, kidney, liver)? If yes, which meridian of the leg do you activate? One of them, all three? Why?
Any personal know-how, experience, explanations, literature etc. is greatly appreciated. So far, I was able to find (by quick searching) only this:
http://polariswushu.net/blog/2012/02/02 ... functions/

Miro

timfire wrote:
The (lower) dantian + ming men point represents a nexus for most of the myofascial lines that run through body. My qigong teacher argued that the dantian isn't really a "thing" unto itself, but rather that it emerges as a byproduct of properly conditioned & trained myofascia.

I agree, although it is more complicated than that. The knowledge, and one might say *passive* existence of these meridians will avail you not. It is the working of them, in conjunction with other critical tissue that creates a dantian out of prior uncoordinated tissue use. In other words, you don't have a dantian...you create one, through constant training. The circular "feel" of movement in the dantian can be shown, but if your dantian were tissues actually completing a physical rotation... you would eviscerate yourself and be dead. There is a difference between actual tissue moving *to a degree* and directed energy , or force, completing what feels like a rotation.
Something tells me that Bodywork would have a field day with this discussion were it to take place in person in front of him.

Cough!!....
It is one thing to debate on line, quite another to actually place your hands on someone who has a developed dantian and feel it move and feel it express yin/yang. I've never had someone successfully debate it's existence with me in person. Those who have tried simply cannot...just cannot ...move their dantian. Other than a few grand master ICMA teachers, so far it has been a 100% failure rate. In essence the 1,200 or so people I have met simply do not have a dantian at all, Hence the reason many on the internet -who don't have one- simply don't believe anyone else does either. On the surface that's an understandable, but rather short sited kind of logic. In short they are ignorant of the potential being there to train in the first place. Instead of debating it for years (and sometimes making enemies) I have found it better to show it, then have fun teaching how to practice to attain one themselves.
Dan

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=22023

These threads seem to be similar in nature in that they address the same things, one asks' a question the other provides some related thoughts or experiences.
the OP and others might find some answers there.

It would seem that a more clear question might be to understand what things a person could do that would tend to verify that certain things where happening or not.
for example some talked of hands flushing, by using awareness, others talked of being able to check for the whether a dantien was established or not.

"Dan" mentioned some good ways to check for this, others might have other ways.

just some thoughts.

[Miro]

Thanks guys, I will check Anatomy trains (although it is not what I asked for, but I have electronic version of that book somewhere in my files, did not have time to read it but I know it is a good book).
Windwalker, thanks for your reply but I am not interested in this type of discussion (verfication and so on). I specifically wrote: "I have a question for those who can feel and actively work with flow of qi in your body and especially for those who can "activate" ("turn on" and "turn off" by will) particular meridians." If someone knows what I am talking about and can provide answer about any system, especially coherent system (if there is any, I am not convinced but I am trying to find it) of using the meridians during taijiquan practice, great, I will appreciate his/her answer. If not, then let it be, I do not want this thread to go in the direction of verification. If there is no relevant answer, then let the thread die, please, thanks.
(To discuss how to feel qi, how to move qi, how to work with meridians, how to rotate dantian is more-less pointless - everyone is different, someone is internally stiff, someone flexible, someone can see it, someone not, therefore their feelings are different, those things are hard to describe in words, etc. It is much better to learn this stuff practically, it is not so terribly difficult.)
Actually I have two questions:
1. Is there any coherent system of meridians use in taijiquan? I posted the link above, however, that article just describes some meridians used in various movements (based on personal experience and personal feelings) but it does not show any logical system. Is there any complete system in taijiquan? Is there any description in old Chinese taijiquan classics about similar system? Did you hear to talk old masters about something similar? Did it exist at all and got lost? Or did not it exist at all?
2. If yes, if there is (there was) some system of correspondence between meridians and postures/movements, what exactly is (was) this system? How to approach it?
Thanks a lot for answers related to this topic.

P.S.: If there is any answer to this, it will be probably related to basic movements (peng, lu, ji, an, cai, lie, zhou, kao) only, I guess. Any thoughts?

Best,
Miro

[yeniseri]

I saw the link for the first post but there are multi-directional processes taking place and more than 1 meridian involved within the taking/holding of a posture.
Muscles are being activated, cytokines brought into play based on degree of flexion, extension, etc based on the type and degree of 'work' being performed, and based on ability of the participant.
The single idea meridian posture is absurd when you realize a multi process platform taking place.

[XiaoXiong]

Wang Pei Sheng writes about this in his wu style taiji manual.
Jess

[Bao]

1. Is there any coherent system of meridians use in taijiquan? I ... Is there any complete system in taijiquan? Is there any description in old Chinese taijiquan classics about similar system? Did you hear to talk old masters about something similar? Did it exist at all and got lost? Or did not it exist at all?

Tai chi is originally not based on meridian theory. Most qigong systems, if mot all, based on meridians are new. Tai Chi health theory, at least from Yang and Wu lineages, is developed from Neidan. We practice tai chi to develop and use pre-natal/heavenly Qi, while meridian qigong training is solely based on post-natal/heavenly qi. Work with pre-heavenly movements demands a certain spontaneity of movement. But meridian qigong demands a precision of posturing and movement that is detrimental to the spontaneity of pre-heaven IMA movements.

However, through what I have learned from one of Liu Da's students, Liu Da probably had a whole system. But my gut feeling tells me that he developed it himself.

2. If yes, if there is (there was) some system of correspondence between meridians and postures/movements, what exactly is (was) this system? How to approach it?

In the system I have been introduced to by one of Liu Da's students ding shi is involved. You stop in one of the postures for approx six minutes, following the path of the appropriate meridian with the mind. In this exercise, it's standing in a certain posture which is important, not the transition between postures.

The single idea meridian posture is absurd when you realize a multi process platform taking place.

It's not a singel meridian idea, but the idea that certain meridians and organs are more activated than others.

[wayne hansen]

It is in the applications
If u understand the energy of the applications
You understand the meridian flow
If you concentrate on the meridian flow u miss it all

[mixjourneyman]

i focus exclusively from the dantian to the yongquan point in terms of intentional practice.
there is a lot going on in the yinqiao, but in terms of other meridians or paths, I let the movement do the work by itself.
My rationale for practicing yin qiao along with dantian and yongquan is that the most activated set of muscles in taiji are in the legs, and as such, having an open yinqiao and soft feet is a good way to achieve greater relaxation in the area.
in terms of the rest of the body, I don't use intention to project energy anywhere, nor do i do that in qigong practice- but i also don't force the mind to do anything other than be natural.
in terms of taichongmai or ren du mai practice, I do this mostly in energy washing exercises after meditation- as well as in tea ceremony.

[Franklin]

Hi guys,

I have a question for those who can feel and actively work with flow of qi in your body and especially for those who can "activate" ("turn on" and "turn off" by will) particular meridians. The question is - how do you work with meridians in taiji? I mean, how do you decide which meridian you activate in particular posture or movement during taiji practice? Why exactly this meridian and not some meridian nearby? Of course, the simple answer is "just feel it", but... For example, peng posture/movement is related to large intestine meridian (here the answer is simple also because your index finger says so) but sometimes the answer is not so obvious. For example, which meridian is used in lu (roll-back in peng-lu-ji-an)? Pericard? Heart? Lungs? Or all three? Or do you start for example with pericard and finish with heart meridian? Also, do you activate more meridians at the same time? For example, when you do lu, do you activate (besides yin meridians of lungs, pericard and heart of arms) also meridians of legs (in this case probably spleen, kidney, liver)? If yes, which meridian of the leg do you activate? One of them, all three? Why?
Any personal know-how, experience, explanations, literature etc. is greatly appreciated. So far, I was able to find (by quick searching) only this:
http://polariswushu.net/blog/2012/02/02 ... functions/

Miro

one of my teachers taught me to use the taiji form to take energy from heaven and earth through baihui and yongquan
and circulate through ren and du
but this is done through the entire forms- each movement-
coordinated with the movement and breath

its not activating individual meridians-- so maybe not exactly what you are looking for


franklin

[XiaoXiong]

http://circusconditioning.com/?p=275
Jess

[NoSword]

It is in the applications
If u understand the energy of the applications
You understand the meridian flow
If you concentrate on the meridian flow u miss it all

+1

As one teacher of mine put it
When you place your attention on qi
Qi stops

[wiesiek]

I practise "meridian qigong",
it has nothing common with TJ of the any style / as Bao stated/
only qi
better flow of the qi in meridians is by product of the TJ practise,
of course some poses/forms inducted flow better here, another there....