The definition of 'Yi' (intention) in the Internal arts

[jonathan.bluestein]

Over the years, many threads on this forum have been dedicated to the question of "what is Yi?", and how it ought to be defined. In my new book, I sought to tackle this subject thoroughly. In the file below (taken from the book), pages 29-42, is found my personal, complete definition as to what Yi is in the Internal arts, and how it is trained and used (along with quite a lot of additional content). Some parts of my book were based on my own research and experiences with the martial arts, but this part concerning Yi is mostly comprised of what I have been taught directly by my teachers, as well as writings of other teachers. I hope that this attempt at a more coherent and comprehensive explanation will ease future discussions on the matter.

http://media.wix.com/ugd/0cde99_2049dcd ... af4fd5.pdf

Does what I have written of reflect your own experience? Please share.

[BonesCom]

Shifu Bluestein,
Is this a sample from the completed book? You have not numbered the pages.

Also, have you proof-read this, or had other people proof-read? On the quick look through your sample I have had, the figure titled: In this picture (BTW numbering your figures as well as pages would be useful) there is a mistake:

Drawings made by my teacher Nitzan, in order to try and further explain the concept of Yi.The one on the left illustrates a person who does not commonly use the Yi that is, most people around the world. For such a person, awareness of his own Yi is very limited. The person on the left is an Internalist adept, practicing the Hun Yuan variation of Zhan Zhuang.

I assume this should read:

Drawings made by my teacher Nitzan, in order to try and further explain the concept of Yi.The one on the left illustrates a person who does not commonly use the Yi that is, most people around the world. For such a person, awareness of his own Yi is very limited. The person on the right is an Internalist adept, practicing the Hun Yuan variation of Zhan Zhuang.

While I understand that this was a self-published book, you can't expect people to pay for something with simple mistakes. It's certainly not a good self-promotion strategy to supply a sample that contains errors.

[jonathan.bluestein]

Hi,

Thank you for your correction. I sincerely appreciate it. This particular error was pointed to me before, a few days ago.

I self-published and had no money to pay an editor, and neither did I know any professional editor who also had lots of knowledge about the martial arts. I had given the book to about 20 martial artists I trust to review before my final publication, which helped correct most of the errors. Some things still slip through. From the time the book was published (July 29th) and up until now, I had received only 4 corrections. Yours was one of them, and was made by others prior. Another one you have missed was me writing 'Zhang Zhuang' at one point instead of Zhan Zhuang. Typos happen, and will be corrected soon. The book contains no less than 220,000 words. At 4 errors/200,000 words, or an 0.000018% mistake rate, I think I did relatively OK

Eventually, these minor typos do not really hinder one's enjoyment of the text or understanding of it. I am sure a few extra errors would be found. That is only natural. I am not perfect and cannot be. You know what? I am now reading a book titled 'When Cultures Collide'. Huge book, international best-seller, third edition by a big publisher. By page 60 I have found 3 errors already. So what? The book is awesome, and that is what matters to me personally

The pages were not numbered because it is a sample-chapter file (as stated on the first page). The page numbers I referred to, 29-42, were the page numbers in the PDF file itself. The complete book has all the page numbers up and correct, checked and re-checked (no errors there).

[willywrong]

Over the years, many threads on this forum have been dedicated to the question of "what is Yi?", and how it ought to be defined. In my new book, I sought to tackle this subject thoroughly. In the file below (taken from the book), pages 29-42, is found my personal, complete definition as to what Yi is in the Internal arts, and how it is trained and used (along with quite a lot of additional content). Some parts of my book were based on my own research and experiences with the martial arts, but this part concerning Yi is mostly comprised of what I have been taught directly by my teachers, as well as writings of other teachers. I hope that this attempt at a more coherent and comprehensive explanation will ease future discussions on the matter.

http://media.wix.com/ugd/0cde99_2049dcd ... af4fd5.pdf

Does what I have written of reflect your own experience? Please share.

Please Jonathan what is your age?

[middleway]

Please Jonathan what is your age?

Why is this valuable information to you?

Jonathan,

looks like a lot of your time went into this. Well done on getting your thoughts onto page and out there.

Are you looking for our ideas of 'intent' and its training? or 'Yi' and its training. Just so i dont hijack your thread with my ramblings!

thanks,

[Alexatron]

Nice work indeed! Having read more than my share of martial art themed books I didn't see myself ever purchasing another however I enjoyed reading your sample - you have a nice easy to read way of explaining stuff and have obviously done considerable research on your topic. Any plans on releasing a kindle version? I gave up buying physical books some time ago.

[jonathan.bluestein]

Any plans on releasing a kindle version? I gave up buying physical books some time ago.

Glad you liked it! I wish I had a digital version. I have two major obstacles. One is that I am truly concerned that once it's digital, it will soon be pirated. Second is that my book was written with an A4 page size format. It is the standard throughout the entire world, except in the USA and Mexico. That large a page does not fit well into the current smallish kindles, and would require a lot of work on my part to adapt to that format =\

Jonathan,

looks like a lot of your time went into this. Well done on getting your thoughts onto page and out there.

Are you looking for our ideas of 'intent' and its training? or 'Yi' and its training. Just so i dont hijack your thread with my ramblings!

thanks,

Thanks Indeed, the book took me 5 years to write...

I think Yi is a subject that people rarely share, for various reasons.

- Some systems don't have it in the sense that I have mostly written of.

- Some don't really 'define' it - it is just a part of their system. It is like when some styles don't really have a name for certain methods... They are just 'that thing we do in this context'.

- Some refer to 'Yi' as 'Qi' and mix the terms in their explanations.

- Some like their secrecy... Say in my martial arts, I refrain from actually explaining the more detailed 'how-to' technicalities in public because I was asked to by my teachers and have to respect their wishes.

etc.

When I did research on the book, it was therefore difficult to collect info about this subject in particular, and therefore was always on the lookout for people telling of their own experiences in how 'Yi' is put to use in their practice. I know for certain of many styles that use it but don't of it openly, or sometimes lack terminology. Yi exists, for instance, in Goju-ryu Karate (mostly in Sanchin and Tensho katas), but most (certainly not all!) teachers lack the words or methods to teach and explain it. Yi exists in the more internally-inclined Wing Chun schools, but this is rarely discussed openly.

With regard to Wing Chun, and probably other systems too, I think Dr. Kenneth Fish brought about a good few hints and clues on the forum over the years (and was even kind enough to drop me a few tips in private messages). I was trying to openly tempt Mr. James Cama whom I interviewed for the book to share with me more about the Internal training in his Wing Chun and Mantis systems, but he wouldn't get into the technicalities :-P I don't blame him though. He brought several examples in his interview to how, over time, other Wing Chun schools have shamelessly 'copied' ideas and even forms from his own rather rare lineage, and he probably figures this could happen again. His interview was nonetheless very fascinating and enjoyable, and getting to know him personally I have come to recommend him as a teacher to many people.

In the 'big three' internal and other arts, many of the names of techniques are used as reminders not only for the fighting concepts and applications behind them, but also for how to use the Yi.

One example from Xing Yi is that of the description of the Chinese mythological Dragon. This animal is said to have the ability to shrink (缩 Suō) its bones. This refers to a manipulation of one's structure in Xing Yi. After a few years of practice you can pull on the soft tissue, probably mostly fascia, from the inside. I cannot really say what is happening mechanically with this mechanism. You use the Yi of shrinking the bones as have been demonstrated to me physically and hands-on by my teachers. It feels like the bones contract unto themselves, from their further extremeties towards the center of the body... You basically contract your entire frame from the inside, but avoid flexing the muscles much, and externally it appears you have moved very little, if at all. Then you can slowly expand back. It feels like all the fascia in your body are nylons or strings that are pulled into a hole in the general Dan Tian area (similar but not quite like 'pulling the tendons', which is another skill more common among Internalists). Once you gain good control over this type of internal contraction, you can use it to internally charge your momentum and add a little bit more to your fa jin, or use this ability to fa jin better from a close range, as your can 'charge' the stretch-reflexes throughout the entire body without moving a lot. This skill takes a hell of a lot of time to develop, and I cannot claim I have by any means gotten near to mastering it. Zhou shifu told my teacher that working on this ability contributed much to his ability to release power. It is learned through the Dragon Xing, but can be implemented in most XYQ movements, and is also commonly trained with Shi Li movements. It's a whole-body skill which is set into motion by having the correct intention.

Again, one sees the problem with Yi here... So ambiguous. I was not really told how much time should be spent just training this skill. Neither do I know the time frame it might take to develop it to a high level. Here too is something I know by sight and feel that others have, but that is not openly shared. I will put my money that this is very common in Southern Mantis, but those who know won't talk about it.

Transmission in martial arts is so complex. How did I know I could do it? My teacher just saw at one point that I was ready, gave me the correct Yi for it, and I could do it. Before I could not. As with Dan Tian methods - at some point you can just do stuff you weren't capable before, and you naturally feel it or can instantly do it if someone points you in the right direction. Yi is basically to point someone in the right direction. Providing them with an efficient way to trick the body to do something, saving years and sometimes decades of trial and error.

[Bao]

I liked all of the text very much and the tone of it. It never feels arrogant or patronising which is a feat in itself writing about these things.

Does what I have written of reflect your own experience? Please share.

Yi? Everything is very well articulated, no argue about that. Though yi can have a slightly different meaning in application and combat. But any chinese character can have many different meanings according to circumstances so there is really no need to list all kinds of connotations. I suspect that would be more confusing than helpful.

[Mr_Wood]

Great work Jonathan, the Yi chapter is very interesting and you have obviously put a lot of hard work into this book. Well done to you !!

It feels like the bones contract unto themselves, from their further extremeties towards the center of the body

I met a guy not so long ago who was able to demonstrate this skill, it was quite impressive. Never read about it before so thanks.

Funnily enough though the same guy said to me that drunken boxing was a fairly recent creation and did not take it seriously or believe it to be a traditional art. I only thought of this as you have included a piece there on drunken boxing where Neil states the history is all legend and word of mouth past down by family members. I'm sorry, im not looking to find fault with your work here or derail the thread, just interested if others have knowledge of the history of drunken boxing as I honestly have none but am curious to here what others think or know or think they know . Cheers.

[LaoDan]

JB,

What you have written about ‘Yi’ (intention) seems reasonable to me. It is nicely done. While I got some information about intention from my TJQ training there is a greater emphasis on it in my ILC training. Master Sam Chin often talks about attention, and attention on intention, the mental aspects of training, etc., and the following expresses some of his teaching better than I could:

http://iliqchuan.com/content/philosophy

Again, one sees the problem with Yi here... So ambiguous. ...[snip]... I will put my money that this is very common in Southern Mantis, but those who know won't talk about it.

I do not know much about Southern Mantis, but it is presumably one of the influences for ILC (the Chin family is Hakka, and the nomadic arts also influenced ILC, as does Phoenix Eye, etc.). I would be interested in hearing what you know about Southern Mantis that led you to make that statement.

I was wondering if an aspect of ‘intention’ could be measured in a quantifiable manner. Some museums have a simple device for measuring reaction times of visitors that consists of a ruler held at the top end by an electromagnet that releases it after a randomized period of time. The visitor would hold their fingers at the bottom of the ruler and would catch it as soon as they can once it is released by the electromagnet. Now, if one aspect of our use of ‘intention’ in IMA is to speed up reaction times, then this device should be able to measure it. IMA practitioners should be able to produce a ‘ready state’ for catching the ruler that non-practitioners (and possibly practitioners of EMA) may not have. Rather than simply watching for the release of the ruler, and then trying to catch it, an IMA practitioner may use their ‘intention’ to produce a ‘ready state’ for closing the fingers on the ruler as soon as movement is detected and thus may possibly respond quicker. It would be interesting to see if reaction times differ significantly between the general population and IMA practitioners (and perhaps also from EMA practitioners). A variant of this test could also be run where the subject is allowed to touch the side of the ruler lightly enough to not impede the fall of the ruler, but would have reaction time presumably increased significantly when adding the sensation of touch to the perception of the ruler falling (or doing it by touch while blindfolded to differentiate between the contributions of touch vs. sight to reaction times).

Finally, I too like the way that you have presented your ideas and the research that you have incorporated into your writing, including presenting differing viewpoints in a respectful manner, while clearly stating when you are presenting your personal experiences and perspectives.

Dan

[jonathan.bluestein]

Great work Jonathan, the Yi chapter is very interesting and you have obviously put a lot of hard work into this book. Well done to you !!

It feels like the bones contract unto themselves, from their further extremeties towards the center of the body

I met a guy not so long ago who was able to demonstrate this skill, it was quite impressive. Never read about it before so thanks.

Funnily enough though the same guy said to me that drunken boxing was a fairly recent creation and did not take it seriously or believe it to be a traditional art. I only thought of this as you have included a piece there on drunken boxing where Neil states the history is all legend and word of mouth past down by family members. I'm sorry, im not looking to find fault with your work here or derail the thread, just interested if others have knowledge of the history of drunken boxing as I honestly have none but am curious to here what others think or know or think they know . Cheers.

Come to think of it, probably more than one method can fall under that description I have given here above. In Chen Zhonghua's school in China there was an old Taiji teacher who could make his bones make cracking sounds... Perhaps that too is similar in feeling:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6Vr8TQlYZg

Not much of the interview with Neil is in the sample file. In the full book there is a much more thorough discussion regarding the history of his Drunken system, which is very interesting. Neil is a skeptical person, so he always adds sayings like: "Yeah, but we cannot really tell", or "by the end of the day it's a matter of personal experience". That despite him mostly being fairly accurate and descriptive in what he says. So don't take his own comments on that too seriously, he's being modest about what he knows ^_^

JB,

What you have written about ‘Yi’ (intention) seems reasonable to me. It is nicely done. While I got some information about intention from my TJQ training there is a greater emphasis on it in my ILC training. Master Sam Chin often talks about attention, and attention on intention, the mental aspects of training, etc., and the following expresses some of his teaching better than I could:

http://iliqchuan.com/content/philosophy

Thank you!

When I watch master Chin, sometimes I think that for a person who did not know who he is, he can appear like a very good Xing Yi or Yi Quan master. I always felt his style is very close to these arts. Pretty much everything I have written of in the book with regard to the Internally-oriented arts applies to I Liq Chuan.

I do not know much about Southern Mantis, but it is presumably one of the influences for ILC (the Chin family is Hakka, and the nomadic arts also influenced ILC, as does Phoenix Eye, etc.). I would be interested in hearing what you know about Southern Mantis that led you to make that statement.

I was wondering if an aspect of ‘intention’ could be measured in a quantifiable manner. Some museums have a simple device for measuring reaction times of visitors that consists of a ruler held at the top end by an electromagnet that releases it after a randomized period of time. The visitor would hold their fingers at the bottom of the ruler and would catch it as soon as they can once it is released by the electromagnet. Now, if one aspect of our use of ‘intention’ in IMA is to speed up reaction times, then this device should be able to measure it. IMA practitioners should be able to produce a ‘ready state’ for catching the ruler that non-practitioners (and possibly practitioners of EMA) may not have. Rather than simply watching for the release of the ruler, and then trying to catch it, an IMA practitioner may use their ‘intention’ to produce a ‘ready state’ for closing the fingers on the ruler as soon as movement is detected and thus may possibly respond quicker. It would be interesting to see if reaction times differ significantly between the general population and IMA practitioners (and perhaps also from EMA practitioners). A variant of this test could also be run where the subject is allowed to touch the side of the ruler lightly enough to not impede the fall of the ruler, but would have reaction time presumably increased significantly when adding the sensation of touch to the perception of the ruler falling (or doing it by touch while blindfolded to differentiate between the contributions of touch vs. sight to reaction times).

Finally, I too like the way that you have presented your ideas and the research that you have incorporated into your writing, including presenting differing viewpoints in a respectful manner, while clearly stating when you are presenting your personal experiences and perspectives.

Dan

Firstly, Southern Mantis is often an Internally-oriented art. Not everyone practices it like that, and many lineages are what is referred to in the book as a 'Combination Style' (has more balance between 'external' and 'internal' components of training).

In Southern Mantis, besides many other aspects I deemed 'Internal' is a strong emphasis on minute contraction and expansion of one's whole structure, meant partly to create a strong and very short fa jin. To be able to fa jin as strongly with so little movement, and also issue several fa jin in close succession, one requires several things to be mastered. Among them is a very refined manipulation of the spinal wave (discussed elsewhere in the book), and the ability to contract and expand the spine as I have described in this thread or with a similar method. Furthermore, I can see that in their movement... I visited a disciple of Henry Poo Yee and saw he had it as well, and he applied several strikes on me so I also had a chance to feel it. This is also very evident in the James Cama documentary and through his interview in the book. (documentary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ElQgPiGh18 ). I suspect that some lineages of Wing Chun have something similar as well.

I think intention can probably be measured with stuff like EEG and MRI, *BUT* you would have to know what it is you are looking for in the brain activity involved. Intention is very specific to an activity, too. So for instance, an expert Violin player can have amazing reaction time with an orchestra, but very poor reaction time playing ball. Even in martial arts, a top Taiji player would not necessarily react so brilliantly when on the ground, as we all know. So different circumstances will yield different results in testing. This makes things very tricky. I have stated in the book that one of the major problems we have is that the people doing scientific research on martial arts often do not have long-term quality experience in them, if at all. So they definitely do not quite know what to look for on the more refined level, cause they have never felt it themselves, and often have never even seen it before. This makes things difficult. Can you really study fa jin if the first time you saw anyone use fa jin was in the lab? Can you learn swimming by correspondence?...

Now, a 'ready-state' is only a part of the whole concept of 'intention', only one form of it, and that too is activity-specific. In another part of the book there is a very extensive discussion about how slow-movement training in itself has the potential to hone sensitivity and a better ready-state.

With regard to differing opinion - that had been very important to me in my work. I even have a chapter dedicated to presenting other 'takes' on the External/Internal theory. One has to be honest about these things. I certainly do not have a monopoly on truth - far from it. Also, I feel that both Externalist and Internalists have a lot of positive and negative sides to their approaches which ought to be equally presented. In the book there is much good said of Externalist ways of training and also a harsh criticism of many overly-traditional Internalist views.

[willywrong]

Over the years, many threads on this forum have been dedicated to the question of "what is Yi?", and how it ought to be defined. In my new book, I sought to tackle this subject thoroughly. In the file below (taken from the book), pages 29-42, is found my personal, complete definition as to what Yi is in the Internal arts, and how it is trained and used (along with quite a lot of additional content). Some parts of my book were based on my own research and experiences with the martial arts, but this part concerning Yi is mostly comprised of what I have been taught directly by my teachers, as well as writings of other teachers. I hope that this attempt at a more coherent and comprehensive explanation will ease future discussions on the matter.

http://media.wix.com/ugd/0cde99_2049dcd ... af4fd5.pdf

Does what I have written of reflect your own experience? Please share.

Please Jonathan what is your age?

I received a couple of messages in my inbox today. One presumed that I was being rude to Jonathan this was not my intent especially as wordy nasty-ness is quite shallow and meaningless. So to set it straight my intent was I was just curious about his age. No More and No Less.

[jonathan.bluestein]

I received a question the other day via private message asking me what I thought was the difference between Yi and Qi, as I have intentionally refrained from writing too much about Qi in the book (apart from all the Fasciae anatomical/physiological talk and the related scientific research). Here is my answer, in 'short':

I think these are two separate though inter-related systems in the body. Both work in unison with the nervous system. Yi is associated with sensor motor-neurons and manipulation of stretch-reflexes. Qi is way more complex and in itself has many types and facets, and is related to the physiology of the connective tissues (especially the fasciae) and the way in which they transmit information (in the context of martial arts. In the bigger context of TCM it is many other things as well).

The feelings of Yi and Qi are distinct and different. The feeling of Yi comes first (meaning it is easier to sense). Many people know this feeling because when you have some considerable *refined* motor skill in something, say playing a violin, you can feel a little bit of Yi. In IMA you just get it to another level wherein the entire body can 'feel' it.
The feeling of Qi is different. In acupuncture, some people are very sensitive, and once needles are put into place have a very strong sensation of Qi. I happen to be one of these people. My teacher feels much less. Seems to have a genetic inclination or something, not related to skill. Anyhow, when I undergo acupuncture, I feel the meridians involved like mildly burning pipelines which are slowly overfilled from the inside. I can draw them on my skin accurately. Originally this was my only real experience of 'feeling Qi', but over time I also gained some feeling of it in my martial arts practice, not only in the meridians. But this feeling tells you more about the state your body is in... It is not related to the mechanics of combat. At least not at my level. I have a friend who has been practicing Taiji for 20 years, he can feel it better.

Yi is very tangible in sensation, can be taught within a short time (at least to the level where one feels it right), and everyone feels something similar when using the same Yi. Qi is rather ambiguous, and talking about what it feels like makes one sound like a crazy person, and you cannot tell whether someone is making up a description or is really feeling something (except perhaps when undergoing acupuncture when you know what he's supposed to feel). Really, when someone says they can 'feel the Qi of another person' - does that sound reliable? It is real, but it goes too much into the realm of doubt and belief for me to have thoroughly discussed this in the book.

Hope this makes things clearer

Maybe in 10 more years I would gain enough experience to discuss Qi more thoroughly. It is too big of a subject. Writing about it would have taken the book down another path, which I did not want.

On this forum, D_glenn (Devlin) has been writing very good descriptions of what Qi and Yi are. His approach examines these subjects more from the point of view of TCM. That too is valid and useful. He has a greater understanding than I do with regard to how Qi and Yi work together.

[D_Glenn]

On this forum, D_glenn (Devlin) has been writing very good descriptions of what Qi and Yi are. His approach examines these subjects more from the point of view of TCM. That too is valid and useful. He has a greater understanding than I do with regard to how Qi and Yi work together.

Technically it's from the viewpoint of Baguazhang 'Tuina' (hands-on treatment using CCM (classical chinese theory and Baguazhang's 8 movements of qi) to influence and 'daoyin' (guide & lead) the patient's energy around their body. 'Tuina', when done martially, to harm, is basically 'Dianxue', which in our fighting system, is various ways to 'Daoyin' the opponent, in the midst of a fight.
There's a lot of TCM practitioners who don't believe in most of what I've written about.

So, to be even more technical, I've never learned any 'Tuina' so everything I know, and have written about Yi & Qi, is from the martial side of our Baguazhang.

Fwiw

.

[johnwang]

Does what I have written of reflect your own experience? Please share.

What's the difference between a TCMA guy and traffic cop when they move their hands? The TCMA guy has combat "Yi", the traffic cop has no combat "Yi".

When you do your solo form, do you image an opponent who stands in front of you,

when you

- punch, do you try to punch a hole through his head?
- kick, do you try to break his ribs?
- lock, do you try to break his arm?
- twist, do you try to destroy his balance?
- ...

When people talk about "Yi", the 1st thing that I think about is the "belt cracking". Some people when he does his "belt cracking",

- his mind is blank. He just cracks his belts as hard as he can with predefined speed.
- he thinks about twist his opponent's body and off balance him. How fast he may crack his belt in between depends on his Yi whether he think his opponent may respond fast or slow.

The reason that I don't like CMC's Taiji form because I cannot see any Yi in it - trying to knock a hole through his imaginary opponent's body.