战跤 Combat Shuai Chiao

[johnwang]

These 2 clips were just uploaded to the Combat Shuai Chiao face book. I would like to share here to generate some "application" discussion. All comments are welcomed.

[bruce]

hi john,

he is a video from a few days ago playing with a position.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k64-jZQ ... e=youtu.be

one of the things i am mindful of is how my knee sticks and follows the ribs and how o put my weight into them.

i enjoyed the 2 videos you put up.
i have a idea similar to the second video. i will record it this week if i can. i would like to know what you think.


collapsing and twisting the spine is important to the takedown.
there are a few basic strikes / locks i like from the knee on belly side control.
-elbow lock / l knee to face
-arm bar
-knee on belly strike face
-full mount sitting high on chest with knees in armpits --- several arm locks and chokes and strangles ...

[johnwang]

collapsing and twisting the spine is important to the takedown.

This is why when you apply a "head lock" and if you can't "collapse and twist your opponent's spine" you are not there yet.

[vagabond]

why on "forehead push" are his palms facing outward?

[SPJ]

Like clip one much.

A quick overview of terms and techniques.

Much info in a short clip.

Classics for class any time.

Thanks.

[johnwang]

why on "forehead push" are his palms facing outward?

When you push, your palm have to face toward your opponent. Since your opponent is in front of you, your palms have to faced "outward". Also since your opponent's "forehead" is narrow horizontally, you have to put both palms "horizontally" to cover on his entirely forehead. You can't do that with "vertical palms". You would push on his entirely face instead. The farther away that you can push from your opponent's neck, the more pressure that you can put on his neck. The forehead will be the right spot.

[Dajenarit]

I hope this don't derail the thread but this guy fights so Shuai Jiao to me.

Can't wait for him to knock out 'Boney' Jones

[willywrong]

These 2 clips were just uploaded to the Combat Shuai Chiao face book. I would like to share here to generate some "application" discussion. All comments are welcomed.

First clip appeared some what classical and the second clip he appeared to be too far away from his partner. Mainly employment of arms and legs, no real body contact.

[Pipefighter,PhD]

one beautiful part of shuai chiao is that expands throwing range tremendously compared to grappling arts. You can be effective using just arms and legs instead of wrestling style up in yo face clench style throwing.

This gives a lot of confidence to someone who is not a striker. With shuai chio you have more options than simply crash in, absorb a couple strikes to the face, then work on your grappling game. With shuai chiao you can pin one leg to the ground without rushing in, sweep one leg off the ground, etc... Being able to throw or at least off balance from striking and trapping range takes a LOT of work, but it is a better approach in real fighting than trying to get chest to chest, pop an opening, then explode with a dragging down type throw.
I can say that first hand. Getting body contact in a fight seems to lend itself to face biting and knees to the nuts. Even if you immediately create a pocket and drop down to a single or double leg, many people have a natural response to cover their nuts by bringing one knee up. That will make a bloody nose. It is much safer to posses the ability to throw/trip from striking range. The clench range is more for sport, in my experience.
================
And,

To Mr. Dajenarit,
" Gaaawwwwjusss!!"

[johnwang]

the second clip he appeared to be too far away from his partner. Mainly employment of arms and legs, no real body contact.

In SC, there are 2 kind of throws:

1. body contact throws - You are either in your opponent's

- front door (your back touch your opponent's chest), or
- back door (your chest touch your opponent's back).

2. non-body contact throws - your chest is facing your opponent's chest but not touching. You attack your opponent's

- 1st side (outside of his left leg),
- 2nd side (inside of his left leg),
- 3rd side (inside of his right leg),
- 4th side (outside of his right leg).

Since BJJ is a popular art today, almost all BJJ guys know how to use "pull guard", you should try to avoid "body contact throw" as much as you can unless you can also control your opponent's other free arm (assume you have already wrapped one of his arms). The reason is simple. Your opponent can wrap that free arm around your waist and:

- pull you down to the ground.
- spin with you and drag you down to the ground.
- lift you off the ground (this can be easily countered).

If you apply non-body contact throw, you don't have to worry about those counters.

If you use "under hook" or "over hook", since you either lift up or press down your opponent's arm, you don't have to worry about that arm to wrap around your waist. Also since his other arm will be too far away from you, his other arm won't give you any trouble either. You can then safely apply your body contact throw in this situation.

[willywrong]

"I can say that first hand. Getting body contact in a fight seems to lend itself to face biting and knees to the nuts. Even if you immediately create a pocket and drop down to a single or double leg, many people have a natural response to cover their nuts by bringing one knee up. That will make a bloody nose. It is much safer to posses the ability to throw/trip from striking range. The clench range is more for sport, in my experience."


If your within striking range you can be struck. There are people out there who can be in direct contact with an opponent and are capable of delivering powerful strikes. I also know a man who can stop a nutting knee and ground people's legs by the simple pressure of his hand once he closes the gap. As to face biting its got to be a serious sort of fight and then what can't you do.
Oh and my limited experience of fights is it always gets close and dirty. There is some really good Shuai Chiao out there but I just wasn't impressed with those clips. The guy in Robert W Smiths book Masters and Methods was genius to watch.

[Pipefighter,PhD]

Even if you are in kicking range, grabbing the wrists is possible. If gripping is engaged, striking is very difficult. From that gripping range, most grappling arts do not have a strategy for safe entry against a striker/kicker. Shuai chiao does. I am not speculating, i have tournament medals ranging over the last 25 years in grappling arts from wrestling, to bjj, to SAMBO. Sambo would be the closest to having a good answer, imo.

If you have an answer for the strikes and kicks, and posses the ability to throw without body contact, it would seem to me that making the throw more easily with hands and arms, or with hard contact to create space, like trunk hitting/striking push is always favorable in dangerous situations.
Isn't that even the reasoning of a striker? You want to maintain a specific distance that you are comfortable with. I want to maintain a few certain distances, just with a different approach at each.

I don't know very many people at that age who can demonstrate moves picking up people their own weight at a slow enough speed to be understandable and controlled. I hope to have that much strength, fluidity, and precision at that age.

[I-mon]

I liked both clips, but found the second one much more useful. Great stuff!

[willywrong]

Even if you are in kicking range, grabbing the wrists is possible. If gripping is engaged, striking is very difficult. From that gripping range, most grappling arts do not have a strategy for safe entry against a striker/kicker. Shuai chiao does. I am not speculating, i have tournament medals ranging over the last 25 years in grappling arts from wrestling, to bjj, to SAMBO. Sambo would be the closest to having a good answer, imo.

If you have an answer for the strikes and kicks, and posses the ability to throw without body contact, it would seem to me that making the throw more easily with hands and arms, or with hard contact to create space, like trunk hitting/striking push is always favorable in dangerous situations.
Isn't that even the reasoning of a striker? You want to maintain a specific distance that you are comfortable with. I want to maintain a few certain distances, just with a different approach at each.

I don't know very many people at that age who can demonstrate moves picking up people their own weight at a slow enough speed to be understandable and controlled. I hope to have that much strength, fluidity, and precision at that age.

Were any of your tournament medals achieved in matches against good strikers or were they agnostic wrestling matches and if striking was allowed, did you manage to secure their wrists from distance. I'm curious.

[Pipefighter,PhD]

I have been in a lot of fights.
If i say other grappling arts outside of Shuai Chiao have a weaker answer for a real fight, you should question my background in other grappling arts. So I established that such an assessment of grappling arts is not simply an armchair critique. I used to always deal with fight/assault/rape situations with body contact type throws- since i have never been a good striker. My personal experience before shuai chiao is that i am able to bring down the attacker, but i have had dozens of bloody noses, been bitten upwards of 20 times. I now train in shiai chiao. I have a greater degree of personal safety in a fight now than compared to when i was just a grappler, since now i can throw from striking range instead of cheek to cheek or forehead to forehead.
And yes, when i train with mma fighters to improve my shuai chiao, i secure their wrists at kicking range regularly, or cover biceps and jump into throws. Some other training partners i have are boxers. They are also good shuai chiao practice for me, grabbing their wrists, working rhino and octopus strategy against actual strikers, not wrestlers pretending to be strikers.

To discuss why it is better to avoid body contact if you posses the ability, "johnwang" already answered. He has a much, much more extensive knowledge of striking and shuai chiao than i do.