Long Jin -> Short Jin

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Long Jin -> Short Jin

Postby johnwang on Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:48 pm

I believe one should develop long Jin before he can develop his short Jin. I have a TCMA friend who said that he had developed his "short Jin". Since I'm very interested to have the opportunity to experience how a "short Jin" hit on my body may feel like, I asked him to spar with me. Of course I didn't tell him that I might even let him to hit me on purpose (of course I won't let him to hit my head). He told me that he was not interested in fighting.

What I don't understand is if he is:

- interested in his "short Jin" development, and since I had offered him to test his "short Jin" on me. Why didn't he want to take that opportunity?
- not interested in fighting, why should he care about whether he has "long Jin", "short Jin", or even "no Jin"?

Sometime I don't know whether I'm weird or others are weird, What's your opinion on this?
Last edited by johnwang on Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Crow weep in the dark. Tide bellow in the north wind. How lonesome the world.
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 10240
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Long Jin -> Short Jin

Postby bailu on Mon Sep 01, 2014 12:33 am

I think, if you‘re going to claim to have ‘this‘ skill or ‘that‘ skill, you should be prepared to demonstrate it. Otherwise, we could all go around claiming to be masters of the 5-point-exploding-heart technique.
~Medway Tai Chi Society~
www.medwaytaichisociety.tk
User avatar
bailu
Anjing
 
Posts: 131
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:59 pm
Location: Kent, UK

Re: Long Jin -> Short Jin

Postby johnwang on Mon Sep 01, 2014 1:24 am

bailu wrote:I think, if you‘re going to claim to have ‘this‘ skill or ‘that‘ skill, you should be prepared to demonstrate it. Otherwise, we could all go around claiming to be masters of the 5-point-exploding-heart technique.

IMO, it's still too easy to demonstrate short Jin on your own students. If you have spent a lot of time to develop short Jin, you definitely want to test the result of your effort. Otherwise, it can be a big waste of time.
Last edited by johnwang on Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
Crow weep in the dark. Tide bellow in the north wind. How lonesome the world.
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 10240
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Long Jin -> Short Jin

Postby MaartenSFS on Mon Sep 01, 2014 3:20 am

I'm sure that my Shifu and most of his Shixiongdi would be happy to work with you if you ever stopped by here.
User avatar
MaartenSFS
Wuji
 
Posts: 2354
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: Cuenca, Spain

Re: Long Jin -> Short Jin

Postby Bao on Mon Sep 01, 2014 5:50 am

johnwang wrote:I have a TCMA friend who said that he had developed his "short Jin".


But did he mean that he had developed it as a punching skill that he could do on a bag and similar, or that he had developed the skill and knows how to fight with it? ???
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9008
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Long Jin -> Short Jin

Postby jonathan.bluestein on Mon Sep 01, 2014 5:59 am

Agreed. That is why in Xing Yi there's a Ming Jin stage and an An Jin stage, and in the first one should spend lots of time working on 'long jin' before learning to shorten it. I also think long jin should be continuously trained at any level, since short jin is relatively more limited in its uses and timing.

In my book I have also made the distinction between wave power and whole-body power, which together with short and long jin produces 4 possible general combinations of how to use power. To these four types I eventually added a 'squeezing power', which is basically strong and continuous tightening of muscles - which also has its uses for many techniques... though Internalists try to avoid it as it is more reliant on brute strength and anaerobic endurance than on technique and a relaxed structure. The really skilled combine elements from these 5 types of power on the fly, or have one part of the body using one method, and the other another method.
User avatar
jonathan.bluestein
Wuji
 
Posts: 3442
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 2:44 pm
Location: Israel

Re: Long Jin -> Short Jin

Postby johnwang on Mon Sep 01, 2014 11:04 am

Bao wrote:But did he mean that he had developed it as a punching skill that he could do on a bag and similar, or that he had developed the skill and knows how to fight with it? ???

As far as I know, that person doesn't not work on heavy bag (or striking target). He also doesn't spar.
Crow weep in the dark. Tide bellow in the north wind. How lonesome the world.
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 10240
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Long Jin -> Short Jin

Postby bailu on Mon Sep 01, 2014 11:54 am

johnwang wrote:
Bao wrote:But did he mean that he had developed it as a punching skill that he could do on a bag and similar, or that he had developed the skill and knows how to fight with it? ???

As far as I know, that person doesn't not work on heavy bag (or striking target). He also doesn't spar.


Which, surely, begs the question: how did he develop it?? :o
~Medway Tai Chi Society~
www.medwaytaichisociety.tk
User avatar
bailu
Anjing
 
Posts: 131
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:59 pm
Location: Kent, UK

Re: Long Jin -> Short Jin

Postby johnwang on Mon Sep 01, 2014 11:59 am

bailu wrote:
johnwang wrote:
Bao wrote:But did he mean that he had developed it as a punching skill that he could do on a bag and similar, or that he had developed the skill and knows how to fight with it? ???

As far as I know, that person doesn't not work on heavy bag (or striking target). He also doesn't spar.

Which, surely, begs the question: how did he develop it?? :o

Through the solo form training.

IMO, the solo form training won't be able to prepare your body to take the counter force back from your opponent when you strike him. This is why I want to use him to experience myself whether it is possible to develop "any Jin" from just the solo form training.
Last edited by johnwang on Mon Sep 01, 2014 12:13 pm, edited 6 times in total.
Crow weep in the dark. Tide bellow in the north wind. How lonesome the world.
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 10240
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Long Jin -> Short Jin

Postby johnwang on Mon Sep 01, 2014 12:30 pm

Someone said that short Jin produced less than half the power of a standard punch. I assume a standard punch means a standard boxing punch. Whether that's long Jin or not, it may be just the term difference.

What's your opinion on this?
Last edited by johnwang on Mon Sep 01, 2014 12:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Crow weep in the dark. Tide bellow in the north wind. How lonesome the world.
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 10240
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Long Jin -> Short Jin

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Sep 01, 2014 1:28 pm

The terms I use are
Abrupt energy
Prolonged energy
I found abrupt energy was much easier to learn
Western boxers have both
The jab is short energy so is a rip to the ribs
I have seen both used to finish a fight
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 5665
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: Long Jin -> Short Jin

Postby MaartenSFS on Tue Sep 02, 2014 7:40 am

Either Changjin or Duanjin are MUCH stronger than an average punch due to their level of penetration and the grounded, whole-body power behind them. Anyone that has experienced it would know that. They aren't even in the same league. Duanjin is just a more refined Changjin and can still be applied from any distance (no, not from another room!).

I have now met four different masters with this ability (three Bagua and one Taiji) and they can send one flying back with the gentlest touch or straight to the ground depending on the power and speed used. I have yet to produce this effect, but the training methods are solid and I am noticing improvement. One master in particular is fucking crazy and hits trees and leaves every morning with many parts of his body (it's his intensity and the effect on the trees that makes him crazy). Hitting people is much easier, he says. He doesn't have to store up some power to Fajin, he has trained his body so that each strike is a Fajin. All of these masters' arms are like iron bars and once they get through to your centre (and they will, whether through you fucking up, footwork, etc., you are done. They can take a fair bit of punishment too. This shit works and it's scary. ...And I am learning it. :)

Also, there are definitely plenty of boxers that can hit hard and penetrate, using full-body power, but I think that the internal way to Fajin is something different again. Tongbeiquan also has an interesting way to Fajin, but loosening the body with their punches being almost like a Muay Thai kick (from what I can tell). It's the ease with which these masters deal these terrible blows that is really special. It's not mystical at all. I can see the stages of progression through many of my Gongfu brothers. You either learned this skill or not. There is a specific way to go about it.

Before studying from my current master I had learned some kind of fake Fajin that looked and felt (to me) really impressive, but was pathetic when I attempted to use it on Shifu and others. "Can you pull down my arms (the very first technique in the form)? Can you push me away? Can you stop me from pushing you? Can you survive a heavier version of this light punch that I am hitting you with through several layers of padding?" The answer to all of those was a resounding "NO". By hitting pads and people (and trees) I can test my progress. This is not possible only through forms work... :-\ If you are really interested about experiencing Duanjin you should try finding someone that is not obviously full of shit.
Last edited by MaartenSFS on Tue Sep 02, 2014 7:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
MaartenSFS
Wuji
 
Posts: 2354
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: Cuenca, Spain

Re: Long Jin -> Short Jin

Postby daniel pfister on Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:10 am

MaartenSFS wrote:Either Changjin or Duanjin are MUCH stronger than an average punch due to their level of penetration and the grounded, whole-body power behind them.


Actually, I think the groundedness of our Jins will tend to reduced the total force delivered on impact, and that is basically why a boxer will (all things being equal) be able to dish out harder punches. We sacrifice a bit of power by remaining grounded and extending our arms less so as to be less vulnerable for throws and joint locks, which boxers don't generally need to be concerned with. I learned some boxing after doing some years of TCC and XYQ, and I was impressed at how much more power I could generate with a right cross by letting go of my root and allowing the arm to extend a bit more. IMO, tongbei comes the closest to the boxers cross, but even with that there is still more groundedness/root (generally speaking) than with a boxer, so there will probably be a trade-off in power.


Now if we are talking about who can deliver the greatest amount of power within a fixed range of motion, it might be a different story...
Last edited by daniel pfister on Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
daniel pfister
Wuji
 
Posts: 569
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:59 pm
Location: Davis, CA

Re: Long Jin -> Short Jin

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:42 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:Either Changjin or Duanjin are MUCH stronger than an average punch due to their level of penetration and the grounded, whole-body power behind them. Anyone that has experienced it would know that. They aren't even in the same league. Duanjin is just a more refined Changjin and can still be applied from any distance (no, not from another room!).

I have now met four different masters with this ability (three Bagua and one Taiji) and they can send one flying back with the gentlest touch or straight to the ground depending on the power and speed used. I have yet to produce this effect, but the training methods are solid and I am noticing improvement. One master in particular is fucking crazy and hits trees and leaves every morning with many parts of his body (it's his intensity and the effect on the trees that makes him crazy). Hitting people is much easier, he says. He doesn't have to store up some power to Fajin, he has trained his body so that each strike is a Fajin. All of these masters' arms are like iron bars and once they get through to your centre (and they will, whether through you fucking up, footwork, etc., you are done. They can take a fair bit of punishment too. This shit works and it's scary. ...And I am learning it. :)

Also, there are definitely plenty of boxers that can hit hard and penetrate, using full-body power, but I think that the internal way to Fajin is something different again. Tongbeiquan also has an interesting way to Fajin, but loosening the body with their punches being almost like a Muay Thai kick (from what I can tell). It's the ease with which these masters deal these terrible blows that is really special. It's not mystical at all. I can see the stages of progression through many of my Gongfu brothers. You either learned this skill or not. There is a specific way to go about it.

Before studying from my current master I had learned some kind of fake Fajin that looked and felt (to me) really impressive, but was pathetic when I attempted to use it on Shifu and others. "Can you pull down my arms (the very first technique in the form)? Can you push me away? Can you stop me from pushing you? Can you survive a heavier version of this light punch that I am hitting you with through several layers of padding?" The answer to all of those was a resounding "NO". By hitting pads and people (and trees) I can test my progress. This is not possible only through forms work... :-\ If you are really interested about experiencing Duanjin you should try finding someone that is not obviously full of shit.



If you believe they are so much stronger Stand with a boxer and trade punch for punch
You may have met men with skill but in my 40 years of training so have I
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 5665
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: Long Jin -> Short Jin

Postby dspyrido on Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:57 pm

johnwang wrote:Sometime I don't know whether I'm weird or others are weird, What's your opinion on this?


I have never physically met you but I think you are an absolute nutter and one day I hope to have a beer with you and then we can proceed to punch each other in the gut from an inch distance. When we are satisfied we can continue with some yum cha (dim sum) and then repeat. If we dont throw up then we can move to breaking chop sticks on our throat. ;D

Btw I also use the same test whenever the topic of short power comes up. It is the best way to stop guys who are shitting me talking theory who just dont seem to have any real martial ability. They usually dont take up the offer either. IDK maybe they dont want to hurt me. The surprising part is the guys who agree to take the test usually end up being people I get along with. Twice I've enjoyed learning a lesson from it in the past few decades.

To answer your question on long vs short - I was taught the path to short is via the long. I cant retest it in my own body but it works and works as a teaching method so I'm happy to stick to it unless someone can show me otherwise.
Last edited by dspyrido on Wed Sep 03, 2014 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
dspyrido
Wuji
 
Posts: 2474
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:03 am

Next

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: twocircles13 and 39 guests