Hsing-I as a Medical Practice?

[cerebus]

So, I was recently reading the book "Bagua Circle Walking Neigong" by Tom Bisio, which is the most thorough and in-depth study I've seen on the Ding Shyr Ba Zhang (mud-walking step 8 palms) of the Liang style of Bagua which I learned in the Tang Shou Tao. In it, Tom goes into detail about which meridians are affected by which palms as well as various illnesses and ailments which can be improved by practicing a particular palm. Has anyone ever done any studies about this subject as it pertains to the elemental fists of Hsing-I? I've heard that Chinese medical practitioners have sometimes taught patients one or another of the 5 elemental fists to strengthen specific organs and meridians, but have not seen much written about this aspect of the art. Any thoughts or input on this?

[wayne hansen]

My first TST teacher was a chiro/osteo and accu.
He was heavily into this in theory
I can say after 40 years I have never really seen it work like that
Train hard train right get healthy
No short cuts

[cerebus]

Well, sure. I'm definitely not looking for "short-cuts" After 10 years of intense training in the Tang Shou Tao and subsequent training in other Hsing-I methods, I'd say I've put in the time and the effort. I'm just searching for a deeper understanding of other areas of the art.

[yeniseri]

Perhaps at one time, this was more accessible but today it comes out as being bogus and without a base of study. Much of it begins with a behavioural baseline!
One of my last teachers was very vague on how this 'internal stuff" can (would be) be applied and he did 'kind of recommend books that I choose (helped by a secondary source) but translation was problematic and some people who were so inclined, refused to translate for me. Over the years, I have attempted to re-engineer some concepts that I imagined and I have had limited success but it is a case in present work. I have, over a period of time, linked some articles and links about this but the translations (again) do not give credence to modern concepts and understanding.

I alos recall at various time during the Qing, acupuncture was banned due to the inability of finding teachers to teach in systematic matter and I am sure that what we called qigong today is even in worse shape than ever because of this lack.

[cerebus]

I imagine that, given what IS generally known about which organs are affected by which elements, one could then look at the corresponding meridians and deduce from there. I just didn't know if anyone else had done this kind of research or not. Maybe a project I should take on myself, though my knowledge of Chinese Medicine is limited...

[cerebus]

Thanks Tom!

[kenneth fish]

Yes, Sha used to practice Pao for his heart - but it did him little good (and his family were upset at his refusal to otherwise treat his heart condition, which is what killed him). The correlation of the elements with the "organs" (meridians really, which is not the same thing) is nonesense - it is something that was grafted on to the system when writing about martial arts came into vogue (i.e. came into style, not the fashion magazine). One can break this stuff down into excruciating detail - for example not only does each finger correlate to a meridian, each joint of each finger correlates to various aspects of that meridian. Excruciating detail, plus vox populi ("everybody knows") does not equate to proof or fact.

[cerebus]

Dr. Fish, have you read Tom Bisio's book on Bagua Neigong, and if so, what do you think of that? Is it more correct than the concept of the 5 elements in Hsing-I? I don't know enough about the subject to draw my own conclusions, so I have to ask those with more TCM knowledge than me. The one thing I do know is that, when I went to my first Bagua class back in 2002, and was taught the first couple of Ding Shyr Ba Zhang and left to practice on my own, I went home with my whole body pumping out heat like I've never experienced before and was awake all night with my mind running a million miles a second. So I know that the Bagua Ding Shyr effectively activates the chi in the body. Does the Hsing-I NOT do the same?

[wayne hansen]

Cedebus I was not talking about u but training in general
The 5 elements work more on the spinal segments connected to the organs more than the meridians themseves

[Doc Stier]

I have personally practiced the Five Element Fists of Shansi Hsing-I Chuan for 50+ years and have also practiced Classical Five Element Phases Style Acupuncture and Chinese Herbal Medicine professionally in a clinical setting for 40+ years to date. The health benefits which I have personally experienced from practicing the Five Element exercises and from applying the Five Element Phases acupuncture point prescriptions and herbal formulations on myself has been undeniably superb. It has enabled me to be completely free of internal illness since October 1967. No colds, no flu, no allergies, no symptoms of any sickness for nearly 48 years, or approximately 2/3 of my lifetime thus far at 65 years of age!

Additionally, application of the Five Element Phases Style of Chinese Medicine in the clinic has successfully treated more than 90% of the innumerable patients I have seen through the years. As a result, I believe the physiological and meridian channel correlations of the Five Element Phases to be both valid and authentic.

[kenneth fish]

Cerebus: I am not even going to touch the subject of qi circulation. However, I have found that just about any new exercise regimen, whether it is learning to lift properly and doing several sets of back vertical squats or yates rows or an intense, deep Shaolin workout is going to get me pumped pretty much the way you described. Its something you hear weightlifters talk about too. Bear in mind that the legs are a secondary pump for the cardiovascular system, so any new exercise that stresses the lower extremities is going to have a similar effect.

If you have a diagnosed or suspected health problem, I suggest addressing that problem with a medical practicioner. Don't expect your exercise routine to be the answer - but don't slack off on it either!

[Doc Stier]

Cerebus: In response to your OP, I have encouraged all patients who were willing to do so to learn and regularly practice specific Five Element postures or other individual Tai-Chi Chuan or Hsing-I Chuan postures as an effective self-help method of physical therapy in conjunction with the treatment modalities I employed in the clinic. This allows them to become a pro-active partner in their own healing, which most often hastens the healing process, and also provides them with a self-empowering tool which enables them to maintain their healing following the completion of their course of treatment.

That said, I also agree that this is best done via consultation with a Licensed Professional Primary Health Care Provider, as an integral part of their treatment plan, rather than solely as a self-prescribed attempt to address any physical condition or disease.

[gerard]

I imagine that, given what IS generally known about which organs are affected by which elements, one could then look at the corresponding meridians and deduce from there. I just didn't know if anyone else had done this kind of research or not. Maybe a project I should take on myself, though my knowledge of Chinese Medicine is limited...

Meridians are simply the 'extensions' (acting like cords) of the internal organs, what enables them to reach out to the entire body-mind system.

Here are couple of links that will help you understand the mechanics of the 5 elements:

Five Spirits: Alchemical Acupuncture for Psychological and Spiritual Healing. Here's a link to a summarised version of its contents.

Chinese Shamanism: Introduction

Ultimately the main thing is the mind but that's another topic. Let's focus on the directional principles regulated by the Bagua and physicality (you dwell here in the physical plane) and the manifestation of life regulated by the 5 elemental forces:

Water...kidney
Wood...liver
Fire...heart
Earth...spleen
Metal...lungs

Tian (Heaven)...Head...Upward Palm
Dui (Lake)...Lungs...Embracing Palm
Li (Fire)...Heart...Outward Palm
Zen (Thunder)...Liver...Uplifting-Holding Palm
Xun (Wind)...Sacrum-Waist...Seizing-Pushing Palm
Kan (Water)...Kidneys...Smooth Palm
Gen (Mountain)...Back...Back and Body Palm
Kun (Earth)...Abdomen...Downward Palm


About the heat you released after 8MP practice:

Karma, technology, intellectualism, junk food, pollution, deviation from the natural laws, excess, alienation, frustration, violence; in other words, EXISTENCE is suffering.

Bagua formats the entire HD but expect the process to be somewhat 'painful.'

[MiaoZhen]

I don't practice Xing Yi so I can't really comment on that specifically. However, I do practice Taiji and I have patients learn different silk reeling exercises as a part of their clinical treatment. I so this since, as I was taught, different silk reeling patterns stimulate specific acupuncture points. I get quite good effect doing this, but also usually have these same patients practice things like basic Qigong exercises, acupressure, patting (paida), and moxibustion (at home).

That said I do also think that any physical movement actually helps just about all patients. The research that's out there is very clear - exercises improves health and increases longevity. But, in my experience, practicing Taiji or Qigong like exercises is very clinically effective.

Henry

[jonathan.bluestein]

Just anecdotal evidence:

- I wasn't sick in quite a few years, and when I was younger I was sickly. When I feel I'm getting a cold or a flu, I stand in ZZ and do some other nei gong, and everything's gone within 24 hours or less...

- I have a 16yo student who was cured of his asthma by practicing XYQ. Have been practicing 8 months - no attack since he started - and he didn't change anything else in his life.

- I have a 66yo student who was cured from undefined knee problem (pains from a kick by an idiot Krav Maga instructor) and a bad gait that he had for 30 years. Took him some 1.5 years of practice, but then he made some progress and within a month his problems were gone.

I cannot really explain how these things happened, only that they did.