Competition Tuishou Rules

[LaoDan]

I do not intend to derail this thread, but the rules for ILC competitions (which TJQ practitioners could also compete in) are posted here:
http://iliqchuan.com/content/ilc-competition

The sticky hands practice of ILC is similar to the push-hands of TJQ, but the emphasis in this set of competition rules is for demonstrating control on contact, which is one reason why the rounds are only 2”.

I thought that the ILC rules would provide a contrast to the rules commonly favored for TJQ.

Dan

[marian]

In Slovakia we use EWUF tuishou competition rulset 2012
http://www.ewuf.org/rules/comp_rules.html
Although we also have some competitions were sweeps, leg and neck grabbing is allowed, to make it more complex.

Marian

[LaoDan]

Niall,

Your frustration with PH rules is clear, and I can somewhat sympathize, but to dismiss those who organize the rules as being “inexperienced” or “stupid” or whatever, seems to me to be dismissive of approaches and emphases that differ with your own. Tournament organizers should have the right to emphasize their own priorities!

To use points that you raised, if a tournament wanted to emphasize use of only Peng, Lu, Ji and An, then Cai, Lie, Zhou and Kao would be eliminated by the rules and, for example, grabbing would not be allowed. Or, if some organizer thought that emphasis should be on maintaining ‘correct’ posture rather than on mechanisms that can compensate for ‘incorrect’ postures, then grabbing may be eliminated in their rules set since that technique is frequently used to prevent oneself from stumbling or falling when one does lose their balance (as you have stated). [Note: I personally think that TJQ practitioners should be skilled enough to prevent effective grabs by their opponents, so I favor allowing grabbing; but I am presenting possible legitimate considerations by theoretical tournament organizers and rules makers.]

There is no overall controlling organization for TJQ which means that every tournament organizer is relatively independent, which results in numerous variations of the rules for PH. You are free to choose which events you want to participate in, and if you do not like a certain set of rules, then you are free to avoid those tournaments. This situation is in contrast to boxing, kickboxing, Taekwondo, various styles of wrestling, Judo, Sumo, etc. which have more consistent rules sets.

Using the examples already given, some may have concerns about the video that you posted where competitors often take postures with legs back and the head forward and often look more like wrestlers than practitioners of TJQ. IF a tournament organizer was concerned about this, then there are several options that they could try to address this issue. They could allow neck and/or head grabs to discourage the head forward posture; or they could allow strikes; they could eliminate attacks against the legs; they could stick with fixed or limited steps; etc. Any options that they choose would be disagreeable to some participants, often for differing reasons.

Since there are so many variations of the TJQ PH rules, few people would agree to which is best. But I suspect that each event organizer is attempting to address what they do not like about what they have seen in other competitions, influenced by their personal preferences and principles that they wish to emphasize. If you are attempting to find some consensus for what PH rules should be, then I doubt that you will succeed. If you are just trying to find posted rules for current competitions so that you can tailor your training to the specific tournaments that you wish to participate in, then it would probably be better to contact the organizers to obtain their specific rules.

Dan

[marian]

Thanks for the kind words Sean, and thanks for the links middleway, we have a number of submission wrestling, MMA and BJJ lads compete at ICBA Tuishou and Sanda formats. All good natured people, eager to compete, share, test and improve their own individual game. Combat Sport is fantastic that way, lots of sincere people who try and smash you in the ring, on the mats or lei tai, but afterwards many times friends for life, all of us knowing deep down the debt we owe to our opponents in improving our own skills!

I am still however awaiting even a single post of another Tuishou comp.....

I know there is one in the Chen village for example, but have never been able to find a link or information....

Can posters include contact info etc. on any Tuishou comps please?

Hi Niall,

Slovak wushu team including myself participated in tuishou comp. in Jiaozuo (Near Chen village) which is organised mostly by Chen people. Rules were basicly the same as EWUF rules I posted earlier. No sweeps, no neck and leg grabbing...

Marian

[Niall Keane]

thanks folks,

Cloudz, I believe in the british seizing legs is permitted, I've checked with Dan on this. The European rules therefore reflect this format, not unlike ICBAs either. The more restricted TCFE moving step caters for groups who wanted a "safer" format. One can read in to this based on past experience.
thanks for the info on the London comp!

Marian, do you have any contact details or links to notice boards to any of those comps you mentioned?

Dan, it is true there is frustration in my words, born form remembering my days as a competitor and turning up in good faith only to find out the rules on the day and finding more often than not that they were fixed to favour the host teams approach. We all in CMA know and have experienced this BS.

I find the idea of having people travel to an event called tuishou and then providing a format unrecognisable to most as bit of a con really. And the vagueness of rules seems to suit such cheaters. Also using TCC jargon as rules - say for example "peng lu ji an" o.k. well in my style "peng" means upward force, so an uppercut is also an expression of peng. Is it o.k. for me to uppercut my opponent? How about "jow" ? so its cool to cut my opponent's eyebrow with my elbow then? right? or knee him in the ribs? my style Jow is elbows and forearms and knees and shins! well that's what the rules say? OH!!!! you mean "the promoters understanding" of peng lu ji an? Jargon fails every time!

The idea of posting CLEAR rules and contact details for regular events or organisations who host such, enables the promoters to advertise which is surely to their benefit, and also offers a transparency for coaches and athletes considering entering. Win Win I would assume? this forum being popular amongst many IMA styles would seem the perfect place to do so surely?

I cannot fathom any benefit for the honest promoter or the potential athlete for competitions to lay hidden, and rules to be vague and applied for by the athlete or coach. Or better still only thoroughly "explained" at a meeting before the matches begin. Every successful combat sport promotion in the world share their rules openly and have relevant info posted.

Look at MMA, which doesn’t have universal rules either, and how they share such info, it allows them to decide what to train for, are they ready for head-shots? do they want kicks to a downed opponent? etc.etc. It allows athletes and their coaches to "programme" and schedule their combat experience and it even allows the "fans" time to plan to attend events they want to see.

Experience equals proficiency, before the ICBA in Ireland there were no Sanda or Tuishou comps, I and a few others had to fight abroad for experience. Only a handful ever did this. Stepping up to international competition in the first outing can be a nervous experience! the vast majority of CMA in Ireland didn't and consequently they couldn't kick snow off a rope. they did pretty forms though! When we started running comps the level of skill was abysmal bar my own students who had plenty of international experience. And they felt obliged to turn up as I was one of the organisers even though for them it was I'll admit a total waste of time - no challenge at all. Now 7 years later the ICBA has EWUF membership, runs 5 national opens a year and this year at the Europeans against 32 other countries another school (YMAA) came back with medals. That's progress!

Its the same reason Muay Thai and MMA lads are generally way ahead in fighting skills than typical CMA lads, they get the experience and practice through comps every 6 weeks or so, sometimes more frequently. Its not rocket science. Practice equals proficiency! In my opinion CMA and IMA in particular needs to cut out the woowoo and wake up to this fact! Or else it will drown in its own arrogance and become a museum piece.

I know there are plenty now, in the wake of the MMA explosion and the wake up call issued, who love CMA to the extent of wanting to make it work for them, and they can see that the best way to test and learn is through combat sports. Many also disagree and that's fine, no one is forcing them to partake. But for those heroes willing to face honest competition and therefore abandon the fallacy of a zero loss rate in order to truly progress, for the future of IMA wouldn't it be good to share info about what comps are available and to make their rules transparent?

I say no its not "better I contact the organisers to obtain their specific rules", better the organisers post transparent rules and relevant information and IMA / CMA start working together if they don't want to eventually lose what ever is left of the dedicated, every honest hard-working student, to MMA etc.

Working together, sharing information, that's communication, the basis of community! We have enough hermits in our CMA history! ;-)

[marian]

Niall
The competitions in Slovakia are usually held by member clubs of Slovak Association of Chinese Wushu. You can find some info here: http://www.wushuslovakia.sk/index.php?b ... rans(sk|en)
The english version of the web is done through google translator, so might not be that correct. If you're interested in informations about tuishou comp. in Slovakia, I can send it to you in advance. Next one will be held in November 8, rules allow sweeps, seizing leg and neck.

Marian

[LaoDan]

I agree that it would be beneficial to have clear rules posted (with contact information where questions can be answered).

Here are the posted rules for the USKSF (Baltimore, MD USA) [PH rules on pg 13-18]:
http://usksf.org/wp-content/uploads/pdf/Competition_Rules.pdf

[Niall Keane]

Thanks folks!