IMA vs Reality

[Wanderingdragon]

" More BLASPHEMY! Mohammad Ali, Larry Holmes and Mike Tyson all probably had better “Hsing Yi” than most of the “masters” you’ve met….. They just never hear of “form” or “will” and can’t name the 12 animals…."

Nails it, what's the commonality here that's missing I today's IMA stylist ? THESE GUYS TRAIN TO FIGHT ! THEY HIT EACH OTHER, THEY HIT STUFF, THEY GET HIT, THEY PREPARE THEIR BODIES FOR SUCH ACTIVITY !

It's the same with the guys who developed these arts.

[Steve James]

it takes time to self-aware.

Ime, it takes a few (at least one) good beat downs to make one become aware of one's limitations and to learn what works. The solution depends totally on need, and that will be true no matter what one studies.

[Doc Stier]

While I agree with many of the comments posted here, I find the OP article to be nothing more than the disgruntled opinion of its author, but definitely not a reflection of my experience in training or applying the Chinese IMA's I learned.

[Ian]

John's body feels like an old hard, dry oak tree, where Jinbao's is like a green sapling, only thick, like a jungle vine, and it's only getting more green, (younger) with every year.

Wow

[Dajenarit]

Lol Better you than me....

[middleway]

Nice article ... but i think its a heavy handed way of saying that if you want to learn to fight, you gotta train to fight and have some fights.

Then comes the question of how to train for reality, I wrote a couple of articles on this a few years back on my old blog if anyones interested. Some of my ideas have changed but think its still relevant info.

http://theukimablog.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/pressure-testing-internal-martial-arts.html

http://theukimablog.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/defining-ima-2-efficiency-in-combat.html

cheers
Chris.

[Mr_Wood]

If I wanted to be good at fighting, Id have a lot of fights. If I wanted to have good health and an associated past time for fighting arts i'd do Internal Arts.

From past experience if I go and mix it up at a boxing club or have a real fight chances are I will end up injured which I don't want. I can train IMA all day with little risk of injury, quite the opposite but I am under no illusion that a seasoned fighter would wipe the floor with me, that's not the aim of my practice. Basic understanding of self defence and awareness is more than adequate for 'tha streets' if you have the basics down well. As said earlier, those IMA'ists I have met who have genuine fighting ability tend to not go around advertising the fact so much.

[D_Glenn]

John's body feels like an old hard, dry oak tree, where Jinbao's is like a green sapling, only thick, like a jungle vine, and it's only getting more green, (younger) with every year.

Wow

I count myself lucky for having the had the opportunity to feel two different results in body-type, that stem from two drastically different views of strength training and approaches to internal and external conditioning, but ever since meeting John Wang I have tried to promote him. John Hsieh (Iwalkthecircle) and John Wang had made a DVD, but you really have to see and feel John Wang's throws in person, and get that first-hand 'Aha' moment when he throws you and then explains how to do the throw.

Baguazhang, XYLH, Xin-yi, Xingyiquan all stem from Cangzhou county where there were large family groups of Bodyguard companies. They provided protection services to a large number of Chinese businesses and travelers. They were kind of like armored cars of today, to protect large sums of money and wealthy business owners from criminals. In Cangzhou city these rival bodyguard companies would compare skills, try to attract potential customers, and increase their reputations by using only the 'Shuai' (Throwing) aspects of their martial arts to compete with one another at the many city-wide festivals throughout the year. These 'throwing' skills would later migrate to Baoding City where they were further refined and isolated into 'Kuai Jiao' (Fast Wrestling). Kuai Jiao would later gain even more fame when people from Baoding traveled up to Beijing and competed in 'Shuai Jiao' and the style became known as 'Baoding style Shuai Jiao'. This is the style that John Wang teaches. It's called 'Kuai Jiao' because it comes from the martial arts like 'Liu He Men' (Six Harmony Martial art) and it seeks 3 points of contact to quickly (fast) throw the person on contact. Where the Beijing Shuai Jiao was more like Mongolian Wrestling. So this fast throwing doesn't really rely on grips and translates to no Gi (no jacket) wrestling and this is what John Wang was teaching us, and what was filmed in the dvd.

Baoding Shuai Jiao is truly Chinese but from the kind of Chinese ingenuity that makes use of what is at hand. It's pragmatic but looks at the whole of how the body functions. The body is basically like a bunch of 3-Section Staffs linked together and the Baoding style thinks about how you have to control all 3 sections of the opponent's body at the same time. The knowledge of throwing skills that John Wang has is vast and overwhelming at first. You think "How can I ever get to his level?" But that's what makes him unique when you compare him to the thousands of Judo and wrestling teachers across the country who don't really understand how throwing works. When studying with John Wang, in the first minute, you begin to realize how it's both complex, yet utterly simple, when he says something like "You need your other hand here, and your foot needs to be placed here.", and what was impossible is suddenly an effortless throw. And then that's how you begin to understand the concept of 'Counter Throwing Moves', which are also just subtle hand and foot placements.

Baoding Shuai Jiao works more in a vertical plane, where other throwing styles are more focused on the horizontal, so it fits seamlessly back into Xingyiquan and Dragon Shape Baguazhang as they all stemmed from the same original martial art.

If you have the means to host John Wang for a seminar then I highly recommend you do so, now. This year is almost over but let's try and make next year the year of John Wang.

His style is highly analytical and requires you to use your mind to think about how the opponent's body works. It's the use of the mind and body that keeps a person young. And after a few hours of training your body and mind will be worked.

Where the IMAs focus on re-structuring and relearning how to use one's own body to make it harder for an opponent to dismantle and segment it up into 3 sections. But in the IMAs there's a saying, something like 'That we don't really train to defeat ourselves/ our own kind.' So we still use and require the knowledge that John Wang has, contained in his mind and life's experiences, to understand how everyone else moves, and how to dismantle their parts and fast throw them and we also use the '3 points of contact' and the concept of 'throw on contact'.

I think John Wang needs to move to Colorado Springs and find some way to start teaching what he knows to our Olympic Judo Team. But in the meantime take advantage of what's contained inside his head; drastically improve your throwing skills; and feel his infamous head-lock!


.

[MaartenSFS]

I got a healthy dose of reality when I was knocked off of my feet and onto my arse today by a Taiji master that I'd never met. I was sparring with a mate of mine and he randomly asked me to "Tui". Before I knew it we were going at it (wrestling match with Fajins). I thought I was doing alright until he decided to "activate". Unfortunately I hurt my wrist when I fell, so no more sparring this week. I can't remember the last time that I watched my feet flying in the air together. I mean, before today..

I mean, fuck me, I'm starting to lose track of whose got skill in this small city that isn't famous for Gongfu at all and where I struggled to find it for YEARS. None of these masters wear fancy uniforms and many don't even teach (at least in public). But they all know each other and regularly "play". I used to lament that I had moved to China and lived far from where the action is. I've got so many training partners (some of them masters in their own right) that I can choose who I want to work with. It's like a Gongfu heaven.

O, and something very interesting that I've discovered is that every traditional art I've seen so far (when practised by someone that can actually use it to fight) has been "internal". That includes Bagua, Baji, Heihu, Liuhebafa, several styles of Taijiquan, Tanglang (Mantis), Tongbei, Yongchun (Wing Chun), Xingyi and Xinyiliuhe. All of the many sport fighting styles (as opposed to external) I've seen pale in comparison. Traditional styles are evil and build the body that you have into an efficient killing machine. As long as they are trained as intensely and involve lots of sparring, TMA is where it's at.

[windwalker]

Lions and tigers and bears. Oh my!

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/The_Wizard_of_Oz

always good reading your adventures
in my own path I've found the people with really
deep skill sets have a different mind set and seem to prefer to remain
in the background.

I mean, fuck me, I'm starting to lose track of whose got skill in this small city that isn't famous for Gongfu at all and where I struggled to find it for YEARS. None of these masters wear fancy uniforms and many don't even teach (at least in public). But they all know each other and regularly "play".

ime, its always been that way, they care little about the outside world and just work on their craft.
maybe you didn't see them but they saw you, and waited until someone who they knew felt you where someone worth teaching something to,
not just another tourist passing
through

[windwalker]

If I wanted to be good at fighting, Id have a lot of fights. If I wanted to have good health and an associated past time for fighting arts i'd do Internal Arts.

From past experience if I go and mix it up at a boxing club or have a real fight chances are I will end up injured which I don't want. I can train IMA all day with little risk of injury, quite the opposite but I am under no illusion that a seasoned fighter would wipe the floor with me, that's not the aim of my practice. Basic understanding of self defence and awareness is more than adequate for 'tha streets' if you have the basics down well. As said earlier, those IMA'ists I have met who have genuine fighting ability tend to not go around advertising the fact so much.

+1

one of my recent students died recently, he was 64
I saw him the day before, the next day he was at home meditating, didn't feel well and died at home.
I should mention that he had practiced IMA for many yrs, and just started with me on some recommendations from a friend.
his passing was kind of surprise to many as he was quite healthy. very kind and nice man.

his passing kind of helps to put things in perspective.
we all make the same trip, need to enjoy the ride.

when most talk of "fighting" almost always they mean competitive events.
the question always becomes if "x" is so good why dont we see it used or in "name event"
nothing wrong with this IMO, but for most of the people I've met who had some
very deep skill it was " not the aim of their practice"

[yeniseri]

Baguazhang, XYLH, Xin-yi, Xingyiquan all stem from Cangzhou county where there were large family groups of Bodyguard companies. They provided protection services to a large number of Chinese businesses and travelers. They were kind of like armored cars of today, to protect large sums of money and wealthy business owners from criminals. In Cangzhou city these rival bodyguard companies would compare skills, try to attract potential customers, and increase their reputations by using only the 'Shuai' (Throwing) aspects of their martial arts to compete with one another at the many city-wide festivals throughout the year. These 'throwing' skills would later migrate to Baoding City where they were further refined and isolated into 'Kuai Jiao' (Fast Wrestling). Kuai Jiao would later gain even more fame when people from Baoding traveled up to Beijing.........

His style is highly analytical and requires you to use your mind to think about how the opponent's body works. It's the use of the mind and body that keeps a person young. And after a few hours of training your body and mind will be worked.

Where the IMAs focus on re-structuring and relearning how to use one's own body to make it harder for an opponent to dismantle and segment it up into 3 sections. But in the IMAs there's a saying, something like 'That we don't really train to defeat ourselves/ our own kind.' So we still use and require the knowledge that John Wang has, contained in his mind and life's experiences, to understand how everyone else moves, and how to dismantle their parts and fast throw them and we also use the '3 points of contact' and the concept of 'throw on contact'.

.

The Mongolian roots took hold in Baoding and overtime (due to its functionality and utility) it became a standard hence its profile. Shuaijiao per my limited knowledge and short exposure to Chang Dungsheng Dashr (seminar/workshop format) is not analytical and never was. Perhaps the audience lacking knowledge and environment, needed to go step by step because of this lack give the appearance of analytical. One does not need to know how the opponents body but you need to be aware of your own and how it can handle your opponent. Chang Dungsheng Dashr once commented or words to the effect (through translation, my perception of that event, etc) that you can see the skill level of your opponent by how he carries himself so based on experience one automatically can tell how the touch/feels hands exchange will end. I would say that many people having Baoding as their base art found that baquazhang, taijiquan, etc a lot easier to learn so they understood beyond form and pajama competition dance.

[MaartenSFS]

ime, its always been that way, they care little about the outside world and just work on their craft.
maybe you didn't see them but they saw you, and waited until someone who they knew felt you where someone worth teaching something to,
not just another tourist passing
through

That's exactly what happened. "When you are ready, the master will appear". At least in China.. It's like a micro-society and if you aren't a part of it, you wouldn't know that it existed.

[Mr_Wood]

Well it certainly doesn't get more cliché than that

[Alexatron]

Then why the fuck are you guys on this forum?

Just curious.

Well said - for an IMA forum there seems to be a lot of IMA haters/doubters ready to share their opinions.

How is it that if an individual either doesn't have what it takes to learn IMA or has a crap teacher they then feel they're qualified to pass judgement on all IMA?

Maybe they're just Bullshido trolls . . .