Excellent Perspective

[Bob]

From my experiences it is process oriented and less outcome oriented.

Ultimately there is no way to avoid "when you have it, you know it" and "you will know it, when you have".
A bit of a generalized platitude but scratch the surface and go a bit deeper - in the end it is the only way to authentically decide the art.

However, there will usually be a lot of "wrong" turns and "dead ends" from which you will back up from and redraw your path.
No one ever said it would be effortless. It will take time, effort and persistence and most importantly, an attitude of openness to the process and willingness to listen.

Sometimes you get stuck in a town (convinced that this is the one style, one system that trumps all e.g. baji) and sometimes you need a "road map" (books) and often a "reading" from the GPS (guidance from a wise person, who may not necessarily be in martial arts and/or a board like this from which you can find great insight).

Ultimately you may travel many roads to find your destination and once found, you may travel even more: often, returning to that destination which you find most compatible.

Sometimes, like a favorite vacation spot and sometimes you will have multiple-destinations/vacation spots. It is like enjoying the beach and also enjoying the mountains so you go to one place at one time and the other at another time. Tastes and preferences change over the years. Sometimes you discover new vacation spots.

None of this necessarily implies a mastery of any one system or blending or adding systems into another system. That really requires a great deal of experience and wisdom (that which I or my teacher has never done). However, this journey does require more than a superficial knowledge of a system along with some smarts on knowing when to stay and when to leave (Should I stay or should I go).

I've used the seasons as a marker for my personal training emphasis.

The example I have given from my own experience was learning Liu He Duan Chui in the early 1990s and then forgetting about it and not really liking it.

Learned it again in the late 1990s and forgetting it.

Learning it 3 years ago and feeling amazed as to how it fit and flowed. Almost an automatic/comfortable understanding of its flow and applications (with help from a good teacher).

Engaging in Xing Yi training to bolster the Liu He Duan Chui (5 elements, moving/holding pi posture and Xing Yi Da Qiang training) and using basic baji nei gong training.

Switching to baji training. Switching to bagua training. Using pigua training like pai da and single moving postures.

Using weighted training with double daos and single dao. Done over a seasonal timeframe but not necessarily rigidly adhered to - sometimes its a function of other world work schedules or simply how my body feels at a given time (also peppered with 3 - 4 mile almost daily walks in Cuyahoga Valley National Park - "Forest Bathing" as the Japanese like to refer to it. LOL)

Not caring whether I have "mastered" or "not mastered" a system but rather trying to acquire an adequate understanding of a system's basic training and basic forms and its basic applications.

Not caring if I can climb into a MMA ring or stopping a speeding train or morphing into multiple dimensions - but only knowing that I move comfortably and carefully and can avoid that which I cannot conquer or dominate and knowing, if need be, I can inflict damage when necessary and being smart enough to dial 911 in situations that truly are dangerous (road rage and the potential of someone stepping out of the car with a gun - conceal and carry is a state policy here in Ohio and in this relatively small area of 300,000 there have been a number of murders over road rage).

Knowing that the term "master" is a nonoperational term and what I see as master is someone who simply has information and experience in an area which is unknown or vaguely familiar to me.

Of course that "master" may or may not want to share any of the information. If they share the information, it may be distorted or may have to high a price tag to pay for its acquisition.

Then there is a real need to "triangulate" the information i.e. seeing and assessing it from other sources (Tom Bisio's writings have been unbelievably helpful in so many areas as an example.).

Discovering that there are a lot of bullshit masters/artists out there but yet knowing when not to "throw the baby out with the bath water".

Of course this might all be a function of age - past my prime! LOL

And my primary writing function is to share what I learned and to seek insight from what others have learned, hence, my posting YouKnowWho's writing and listening to the thoughtful insights arising from its discussion - this board is truly a " bao bao"!

[Bob]

I think if they don't have it they know they don't
Even though they may give an outward sign that they have it
Just because you know u have the correct training does not mean you have perfected it
We can always look deeper ,train harder and learn more
There comes a point where you have a full tool bag and just have to perfect using them
From tradesman grows the artist

I like that idea "From tradesman grows the artist". I would tweek it a bit by looking at acquiring the "Art" in martial as one of an apprentice learning a craft although I would avoid the word "perfected". In fact that might be a title of a book, "The Craft of Martial Arts".

LOL not my original idea but based on the reading of:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Craft-Teachin ... 55&s=books

The Craft of Teaching: A Guide to Mastering the Professor's Art Paperback –
March 4, 1994
by Kenneth E. Eble (Author)

``Eble's book dispenses wisdom in the form of practical advice to both beginning and seasoned professors. He believes that people can learn to be better teachers through the examination and `unbundling' of the craft itself.''
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Although these discussions sometimes are heated and seem to go off track, I really see this as an "unbundling" of Chinese martial arts and unbelievably useful.

[Bao]

2nd major problem) Useless explorations into skill sets that have little relevance to a fight. Kung fu'ers will spend years training skill sets that are easily negated

I agree with that less is more. But I don't agree that explorations and practice of different skill sets is useless.

Learning and understanding different ways to use the body and different ways to manipulate another body is never a waste of time. Seamingless useless techniques and perifical skills might teach you very important knowledge about basic skills as timing, leverage, joint manipulation, entering strategies and more.

[Ba-men]

2nd major problem) Useless explorations into skill sets that have little relevance to a fight. Kung fu'ers will spend years training skill sets that are easily negated

I agree with that less is more. But I don't agree that explorations and practice of different skill sets is useless.

Learning and understanding different ways to use the body and different ways to manipulate another body is never a waste of time. Seamingless useless techniques and perifical skills might teach you very important knowledge about basic skills as timing, leverage, joint manipulation, entering strategies and more.

Bob what I was thinking was probably totally different that what your original thoughts were.

IMO too much of anything is bad. Yet, If one is learning to explore what they do best... then I think its a good thing. To achieve prowess a lot of what one does has to be "hard wired." ( obvious ) One can't be thinking "ok what technique(s) will I use" One has to have hardwired " I do xyz. A) how can I force xyz on my opponent. Or B) what out of xyz will my opponent give me. And these processes have to be honed to a reflex speed. And..Yes this is a simplification. I think exploring just to explore cuts down on the "achieving prowess side." i.e. the hardwiring side.
(If I can't defend against my opponent's basic punches, sweeps or throws (then they aren't so simple and basic are they) and then is really doesn't matter how much "I know of" ... Imo to know is being able to do.. to know of "is being aware of" And not the same thing in MA)

In CTMA I see practitioners explore/learn skill sets that don't warrant the amount of time they put into these skill sets. Its a sensitive issue here so I'll use modern Aikido as an example of what I see in much of CTMA's. Much of what we see in Aikido runs counter to would actually happen in a fight. In a lot of what they do the opponent would just let go of what was being grabbed e.g. a lapel, a wrist etc... (the hint of loosing one's balance, i.e. letting go of what is causing you to loose your balance is a human reflex thus negating the throw/hold. Or the opponent would attack with the other hand causing the Akidoka to stop what they are doing and defend. Doesn't simple footwork or positioning causes huge problems for the modern Aikidoka? Don't these negates much of what we see in modern Aikido? No one skilled would blindly attack and let their center of balance get manipulated like that. In fact, manipulating anyone's balance who has a clue is a lot harder than it looks ... Yet in Aikido ( in many schools but not all) these obvious points are not addressed. That doesn't mean Aikido is bad, IMO it just means these issues have to be addressed if they are to achieve prowess.

Same goes in CTMA I think this one factor is what i see most. Seems to me if your training a skill sets that can easily be negated by simple footwork or a punch with the other hand, then spending hours and years training that skill set, is a lost cause. Un-prioritizing it needs be be addressed. (even if many thinks it defines the art) I think in most cases this UN-proritising of a skill set is the difference between that MA being effective and not. Not saying these skill set(s) is/are useless. I'm just saying IMO the "how" and the "when" as they are taught currently are useless. BIG DIFFERENCE.

That said... many practice a MA as an art. (where prowess is not a main concern and that's cool) And many become disciples of huge systems that there is no way one can master it all and in affect become a coach. In these cases it's their function is to "know of" so they can transmit to others and that's cool too. )

[MiaoZhen]

There really isn't such thing as a "complete" martial art since martial arts are all task, goal or situation specific. Something that works or was designed for the battlefield is very different from a civil self defense art. A practice that a police officer uses is different from something used for sport or competition (e.g., police grapple opponents face down at a further distance from their bodies while a jodoka is more likely to put people on their back using techniques that keep them closer to their bodies). For example, one of my teachers practices a naginata system where the movements were designed for people wearing battlefield armor. Very situation specific. If the weapon is razor sharp and 9 feet long (and I'm wearing armor), do I really need the same power generation that an empty hand system develops? Empty hand systems that don't train in weapons are not useful for real "combat" on the battlefield. Systems were all developed by people for the specific situation they were using them for (e.g., battlefield, bodyguard, civil self defense, dueling, competition - all require different skills and concerns). No one system can possibly master all concerns since none of the founders (or at the least very few) had extensive experience in all types of violent interactions.

If I am never going to be on a battlefield then I have different concerns than learning something meaningful for self defense when I'm walking around New York. Rory Miller discusses this idea at great length in his books Meditations on Violence.

[Avenger]

I have seen the best results from people who learned a straight line system first, like connecting numbered dots on our old drawing books, once the straight line is figured out, learn to bend the line to form smooth curves and circles , and then find the internal core that gives a root and structure.

[windwalker]

touches on some good points as to when one knows when they have it or not ,and the
contrast between Chinese and western thinking. "in his view"

[windwalker]

ame goes in CTMA I think this one factor is what i see most. Seems to me if your training a skill sets that can easily be negated by simple footwork or a punch with the other hand, then spending hours and years training that skill set, is a lost cause

Or maybe what one is learning is not really conducive to attaining the skill sets their looking for or have heard about.
In many cases people just have not met others with either true skills or deep enough skills.

In this day and age, there are many highly skilled people giving seminars, letting others sample their work or skill.
Hopefully when meeting people of skill, it will cause one to reflect and understand the idea of what it takes to gain
skill and what true skill really is.

[HolyChaoMu]

New guy here, hello everyone.
Thumbs up for mention of Rory Miller's book. A good reality check for anyone who's job doesn't involve dealing with and deescalating violent situations.
I practice under someone who has a mixed background, Wing Chun for the longest time, Bagua/Systema for the last 4-8 years.
The main reason I find his teachings impressive besides some obvious skill is the fact that he is a bail bondsman/bounty hunter in a fairly rough county. I have confidence he picks what works for him given the need for it to work.