Excellent Perspective

[Bob]

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/sho ... an-is-cool

One of the best assertions I have seen in a long time:

If you can train

- Longfist for foundation,
- Baji for power,
- Mantis for speed,
- Eagle Claw for joint lock, and
- SC for throw,

You will have a good understanding about CMA.

Last edited by YouKnowWho; 09-27-2010 at 07:48 PM.

No style has foundation building, power generation, speed generation, locking skill, and throwing skill at the same time. Cross training is not MMA idea. It was CMA idea since the ancient time.

Last edited by YouKnowWho; 09-27-2010 at 08:04 PM.
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I also would add:

"Traditional Northern Chinese martial arts are all sons of the same mother." Liu Yunqiao

[wayne hansen]

So do you train the entire systems
Don't tai chi ba Kua and hsing I fit in
If you train the entire system and the three internals how long do you train each and how often do you practice each aspect of each art
Isn't there anyone you have met who has all these aspects and can teach them to you

[XiaoXiong]

This is a lot of shit to learn. Why make it so complex and difficult? It seems that it is better to work on what is common to all fights and go from there. Not to work on bunch of shit that may or may not be relevant to the fight you are in. If you want to fight you have to touch the person you wish to fight. If you intend to touch me then I have something I can use against you. It doesn't need to be a million things, just the right one.
Jess

[Bob]

Excellent questions!

Given what I see, we can't even define what a complete system is in bagua, one of the youngest systems to evolve.

It seems that all styles evolve as composite modifications of other systems including the "internals" such as taijiquan, bagua, and xing yi. Some often build into other styles such as 8 step praying mantis - I guess you pick your teacher and the material that fits you very carefully.

There are a lot masters that have gone down this road - one that comes to mind is someone like Wang Peisheng, among others.

This line of thought often presupposes that it is possible to identify something called a "complete system."

I struggle with the question centering on what basis does anyone one know if they have mastered a complete system.

With the variation among teachers how does one ever know if they have a complete system? You might be able learn what your teacher knows but I don'think you can ever verify if it was or the complete system.

Yang Chengfu comes to mind - a lot of people like to think that he had a complete system of taijiquan but did he really?

I think picking and choosing what you want to master may be inherent to the mindset of classical Chinese culture (see Roger Ames Sun Tzu).

Having a complete system is like chasing a ghost. Maybe.

[wayne hansen]

When u have it u know it

[Dajenarit]

I agree with what Bob said. It is like chasing ghosts.

Maybe asking if a style is complete is the wrong question to ask? You can eliminate most styles as being considered complete if they don't have gun disarms or train with knives or first aid training, straight off the bat.

If you haven't gotten punch, kick, block and wrestle in a free flowing format down pat, concerning yourself with whether you know every single technique variation in your system seems like a diversion from actual fighting. It seems like people who do spar regularly and fight with their systems don't concerns themselves too much with style purity or ''completeness'' and they're usually more open-minded about seeking what works elsewhere wherever they may find it. Doesn't matter how many techniques, principles and sparring scenarios you've memorized if you can't prevent fists from contacting your face or being tossed on your ass.

It makes more sense to ask whether whatever I'm practicing covers all the bases for whatever situation I'm likely to encounter in a fight. On top of that if martial artists say on 1 hand that style doesn't ultimately matter and its up to each individual to personalize what they do based on their own strengths and limitations, (after regular sparring, I might add, which is the only way to do that) picking and choosing which system or which techniques/principles in their preferred style/system that works for them. Then on the other hand asking whether a style is complete is in my opinion pointless if its already established that every technique and principle in any particular style isn't going to work for everyone. It wouldn't matter if your art has dozens of long range techniques, meant for 6 footers, if you're 4 foot nuthin' even with platform shoes on, or that it has every kicking technique on the planet, if you can't lift your legs above your kneecaps. Bragging about how complete your system is, is just ego at that point. Its good marketing but I think its a pointless mentality if you want to fight with your shit and not simply be a forms collector.

[Bob]

When u have it u know it

That is an excellent point.

No matter how we try to "objectively" define a "complete" system it ultimately rests on a platform of subjectivity.

Perhaps some platforms are more comprehensive than others but the acquisition of an absolute complete system is unachievable.

Usually a complete system is defined by its boundaries and we say that if you reach the boundaries then you possess a complete system. But ultimately this depends upon the subjective assessment of someone whom we have labeled a "master". The labeling of master also falls prey to the same subjectivity.

So ultimately it boils down to the practitioner's subjective experience and assessment. I've know a wrestler, not ranked but played it in high school, he sees himself as complete in so much as he believes he can take care of himself in any situation.

His one experience was with a black belt in Taekwondo and he wrapped that guy up in a matter of minutes - took a lot of blows to get inside but once he did it the game was over. As far as he is concerned, he doesn't need anything more martial and spends a lot of his time doing aerobic conditioning exercise.

One other point - consider 6 harmony mantis. Its foundational form is a 6 harmony form (whoever said that had to be? LOL) - without it you are said to be incomplete and yet someone could say without the entire 6 harmony system your 6 harmony mantis system is incomplete.

A master of 6 harmony learned some 7 star (qi xing Zhai yao) and added elements of 6 harmony to it.

Where does that take completeness? This seems to go on endlessly - maybe that is generally how traditional Chinese martial arts adapts and survives.

Someone arbitrarily decides where and when to draw the boundary.
So why shouldn't it be the practitioner since the art serves the practitioner and the practitioner does not or should not serve the art [although many get caught up blindly serving a system].

You become a captain of your own ship and journey, master of your own destiny.

So yes, you'll know it when you have it and when you have it you will know it!

[MaartenSFS]

For what it's worth, every master I have met that can fight has studied at least several styles and doesn't give a shit about a "complete system". Lately, I have begun to realise the error of that mindset and embraced the Chinese way and my fighting has improved a lot. "Complete systems" are more of a marketing thing..

[wayne hansen]

For what it's worth, every master I have met that can fight has studied at least several styles and doesn't give a shit about a "complete system". Lately, I have begun to realise the error of that mindset and embraced the Chinese way and my fighting has improved a lot. "Complete systems" are more of a marketing thing..

That is your oppinion and expierence and you have a right to it.
However I have watched you change your teachers and opinions on several occasions.
It will be interesting to see what u think after 10,20 ,30, or even 40 years training.
I started training in the Bruce lee era where people went out and learnt the basics of as many systems as possible and ended up with a lot of diverse basics which in the end was a lot of time wasted.
One good teacher
One good system
If your teacher hasn't got it or 10 teachers haven't got it the outcome is the same and then you die.
The reasons for complete systems is so the knowledge can transcend generations.
Just because you are in china it makes no difference training is training.
Teachers are teachers
Systems are systems
Talent is talent
Perseverance is perseverance

[Bao]

Having a complete system is like chasing a ghost. Maybe.

Well put. But is this the real goal to strive for anyway? In chinese, there's a common proverb that every generation must become better than the present one. The teacher has an obligation to make sure that every student becomes better than him. This also means that a system needs to change, otherwise there can not be improvements. Just learning tradition is not enough. The development is what is important. Finding a unique personal expression is also important. It doesn't matter really how development is achieved, through a change of focus, taking away or adding. What and how something will be improved has also to do with the development of a personal expression and a seldom outspoken agreement between teacher and student.

So a TCMA "system" is not really as fixed as people here might think. It's something that is changed, from generation to generation.

[GrandUltimate]

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?58405-Baji-Quan-is-cool

One of the best assertions I have seen in a long time:

If you can train

- Longfist for foundation,
- Baji for power,
- Mantis for speed,
- Eagle Claw for joint lock, and
- SC for throw,

You will have a good understanding about CMA.

Agreed, I really liked that post when I first read it. I mainly took it in concept though. I dont think one necessarily has to master all those arts to have a good understanding of CMA (though that may happen naturally anyway due to dedication and persistence), I took it as the idea that different arts have different things they' specialize in so cross training in various arts while using a good strategy in which arts you choose gives a much bigger picture of CMA (or "martial arts" in general).

[Ba-men]

I don't agree.

In fact I think Bob just listed what wrong with Quanfa and why it cant "cut the mustard" (in a general sense) against other MA

1st major problem) INFORMATION OVERLOAD!
A) too many ways of doing the same thing... e.g. a punch is a punch. " how many punches do boxer's have? " Yet kung fu (hate that term) seems to have a thousand. As we all agree most boxers will kick our asses in a street fight. Why?

B) kung fu'ers seem to collect forms and techniques and this seems to be viewed as experience and mastery. Really?


2nd major problem) Useless explorations into skill sets that have little relevance to a fight. Kung fu'ers will spend years training skill sets that are easily negated

less is more. Mastery of a one technique is better than a thousand half ass'ed ones that don't work

[MaartenSFS]

For what it's worth, every master I have met that can fight has studied at least several styles and doesn't give a shit about a "complete system". Lately, I have begun to realise the error of that mindset and embraced the Chinese way and my fighting has improved a lot. "Complete systems" are more of a marketing thing..

That is your oppinion and expierence and you have a right to it.
However I have watched you change your teachers and opinions on several occasions.
It will be interesting to see what u think after 10,20 ,30, or even 40 years training.
I started training in the Bruce lee era where people went out and learnt the basics of as many systems as possible and ended up with a lot of diverse basics which in the end was a lot of time wasted.
One good teacher
One good system
If your teacher hasn't got it or 10 teachers haven't got it the outcome is the same and then you die.
The reasons for complete systems is so the knowledge can transcend generations.
Just because you are in china it makes no difference training is training.
Teachers are teachers
Systems are systems
Talent is talent
Perseverance is perseverance

Fair enough, but you didn't "watch" me train four hours a day, six or seven days a week for the last several years that I've been doing TCMA or the ten doing combat sports before that. My opinion changed because I've had hands-on experience with some really skilled masters and their differing teaching styles and pondered a lot about
the benefits of each and which one works best for me.

I love my current teacher because he has amazing skill, can control himself, has a very systematic teaching approach, spars regularly, is open-minded and has a very similar personality to me. And he doesn't smoke. I've met many other masters that I love to work with but wouldn't want to be a desciple of for one reason or another.

Granted, martial arts aren't limited to China, but, as we are talking about TCMA, I highly doubt that the amount of skill in TCMA I've seen here in this one small city is as concentrated in most places in the West. Living and breathing Gongfu in its homeland with unknown masters every day has its advantages. I've often been told that "Gongfu resides amongst the common folk" and, in my experience, that has totally been true.

Back to the "complete system" thing, though... As I see it, each system shares a lot with others but specialises in something. Rather than waste time on trying to make an art work for something that it was not intended for, these masters just study an art that has that specialised skill. They may even learn a new way to improve their foundations, or see their previous art from a new perspective.

Also, rather than collecting thousands of techniques, they will explore new ways to use their favourite ones. My Shifu will be teaching me Taijiquan and I'll raise my eyebrow and say "But isn't that more like [insert style here]..?". Or I'll recognise the technique from another system myself and have an "Aha!" moment. Shifu will laugh, knowingly. The exterior of the technique may vary, but often the "Jins" are the same. A technique like "Yunshou" (cloud hands) has so many variations and cognates in other systems that it's ridiculous. If someone attacks from one side or from the other the technique may appear to be completely different, but it's the same thing with a different intent. When Shifu fights, he has a limited number of techniques that he favours, but he can use them in MANY different situations. Suddenly he'll be behind me and I realise how awesome Bagua footwork is. Or I strike at him only to lose my balance at the hands of his Taiji. Or he just plows right through me with his XYLY. Or he throws me off of my feet with a simple turn of the waist with his Bagua. Or he slides through my barrage of failed attempts like butter with his Taiji. Or he attacks me from a strange angle with Yongchun and stabs me in the throat with his Tanglang. It's all there. He doesn't remember the forms, but, as he says, "Once one knows how to swim, it is not necessary to practise swimming all the time."

All of these highly skilled masters studied from different teachers, learned from their peers (fighters of near equal skill) and worked with people from many different styles. The complete system is when they have filled in most of the gaps in their martial repetoire, regardless of where it came from, perhaps inventing a new style in the process. In my experience, the three big "internals" aren't anything special and have probably been re-invented several times each over the last thousands of years, they share that much with other TCMA. Absolute purity is for those who have a vested interest in one art and care more about face than fighting or for many of us silly Westerners.

[dspyrido]

When u have it u know it

Too prone towards self deception. I dont assume my experience is unique but there are many ima advocates (and in other styles) who believe they have it but don't.

I prefer - if you test it widely and come out doing well then it is likely you have something. Next step ... keep going.

[wayne hansen]

I think if they don't have it they know they don't
Even though they may give an outward sign that they have it
Just because you know u have the correct training does not mean you have perfected it
We can always look deeper ,train harder and learn more
There comes a point where you have a full tool bag and just have to perfect using them
From tradesman grows the artist