BGZ Circle Walking=Moving Cerebrospinal fluid (CSF)

[D_Glenn]

Kenneth; KEND,

Here's another study that looked at figuring out how the CSF moves in the Glymphatic System of the brain: http://www.alzforum.org/news/research-n ... er-channel

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[Doc Stier]

So, you can reach the same mental physical state, but there's a saying in BGZ, 'We have only 2 steps (bai and kou), while TJQ has 108 steps.', meaning Baguazhang only has 2 steps to learn before it's considered a Meditative Movement, while TJQ has 108 steps to learn before it becomes a Meditative Movement..

Let's not confuse 'steps' with form postures. Some Large Frame TCC forms may contain 108 form set postures, but these most certainly DO NOT represent 108 different types of footwork or 108 different stances. Likewise, all Baguazhang styles definitely contain far more than 2 form set postures and more than 2 different stances, even though these are all primarily expressed via the 2 basic toe-in and toe-out steps of typical circle walking.

And in regards to a meditative practice, simply standing in the Wu-Chi posture can easily prove sufficient to achieving that end, without taking any steps whatsoever!

[D_Glenn]

So, you can reach the same mental physical state, but there's a saying in BGZ, 'We have only 2 steps (bai and kou), while TJQ has 108 steps.', meaning Baguazhang only has 2 steps to learn before it's considered a Meditative Movement, while TJQ has 108 steps to learn before it becomes a Meditative Movement..

Let's not confuse 'steps' with form postures. Some Large Frame TCC forms may contain 108 form set postures, but these most certainly DO NOT represent 108 different types of footwork or 108 different stances. Likewise, all Baguazhang styles definitely contain far more than 2 form set postures and more than 2 different stances, even though these are all primarily expressed via the 2 basic toe-in and toe-out steps of typical circle walking.

You must have missed the part where I wrote that it's a joke.

And in regards to a meditative practice, simply standing in the Wu-Chi posture can easily prove sufficient to achieving that end, without taking any steps whatsoever!

That may, or may not be sufficient for Stage 1: Building a Foundation, but I don't believe Wuji stance promotes the blood flow you need to do Stage 2.


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[Doc Stier]

I did indeed. Never mind!

[jonathan.bluestein]

Thank you for this extremely informative post. This reflects very well my own feelings and experiences with Zhan Zhuang, when trained for over 40 minutes at a time. It used to take me as much as describe to reach each stage, nowadays fortunately not as much...

[kenneth fish]

D_glenn: Thank you for that link - it supports what I said earlier, that the lymphatic system is not directly in communication) (i.e. there is no exchange between) with the lymphatic system of the body. In addition, the mechanism by which CSF moves and circulates within the spinal column and the CNS is not what you are depicting in your posts.

[D_Glenn]

D_glenn: Thank you for that link - it supports what I said earlier, that the lymphatic system is not directly in communication) (i.e. there is no exchange between) with the lymphatic system of the body. In addition, the mechanism by which CSF moves and circulates within the spinal column and the CNS is not what you are depicting in your posts.

I know that the lymphatic system of the body doesn't interact with the CSF, I never mentioned that it did. And I never directly adressed any mechanisms that make the CSF move, nor did I ever mean to imply that there is any movement in the spinal column. If you read the article about the "Glymphatic" system in the brain, that is the movement of CSF that I believe can be induced from 'Moving Meditation' (Xing Zhuang) and then drain down through the 3 processes that are described in that article you posted.

Sorry that my first post was so confusing. I was overexcited, when I posted, from finally finding that 2012 study and should have started my post with links to it, instead of burying the link in middle of my post.



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[D_Glenn]

And, I may not be the brightest bulb in the box, but I know that the interstital fluids in the body don't interact with the brain. The fluids, blood, and qi of the body are indirectly affecting the movement/flow, but this flow of CSF, that would normally only happen when you are asleep, can be triggered to happen by following the strict guidelines of the 'Xing Zhuang' practices. And it may take years of daily practice until one reaches the point where 'all pieces are in the right place, at the right time', and even then it's not something that is achieved everytime you practice. It's a powerful 'Daoyin' and somedays your body doesn't want to do it.

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[D_Glenn]

"Glymphatic System of the brain (not the LYMPHatic system of the body) article:

Brain may flush out toxins during sleep

NIH-funded study suggests sleep clears brain of damaging molecules associated with neurodegeneration

A good night’s rest may literally clear the mind. Using mice, researchers showed for the first time that the space between brain cells may increase during sleep, allowing the brain to flush out toxins that build up during waking hours. These results suggest a new role for sleep in health and disease. The study was funded by the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke (NINDS), part of the NIH.

“Sleep changes the cellular structure of the brain. It appears to be a completely different state,” said Maiken Nedergaard, M.D., D.M.Sc., co-director of the Center for Translational Neuromedicine at the University of Rochester Medical Center in New York, and a leader of the study.

For centuries, scientists and philosophers have wondered why people sleep and how it affects the brain. Only recently have scientists shown that sleep is important for storing memories. In this study, Dr. Nedergaard and her colleagues unexpectedly found that sleep may be also be the period when the brain cleanses itself of toxic molecules.

Their results, published in Science, show that during sleep a plumbing system called the glymphatic system may open, letting fluid flow rapidly through the brain. Dr. Nedergaard’s lab recently discovered the glymphatic system helps control the flow of cerebrospinal fluid (CSF), a clear liquid surrounding the brain and spinal cord.


Scientists watched dye flow through the brain of a sleeping mouse.Courtesy of Nedergaard Lab, University of Rochester Medical Center.
“It’s as if Dr. Nedergaard and her colleagues have uncovered a network of hidden caves and these exciting results highlight the potential importance of the network in normal brain function,” said Roderick Corriveau, Ph.D., a program director at NINDS.

Initially the researchers studied the system by injecting dye into the CSF of mice and watching it flow through their brains while simultaneously monitoring electrical brain activity. The dye flowed rapidly when the mice were unconscious, either asleep or anesthetized. In contrast, the dye barely flowed when the same mice were awake.

“We were surprised by how little flow there was into the brain when the mice were awake,” said Dr. Nedergaard. “It suggested that the space between brain cells changed greatly between conscious and unconscious states.”

To test this idea, the researchers inserted electrodes into the brain to directly measure the space between brain cells. They found that the space inside the brains increased by 60 percent when the mice were asleep or anesthetized.

“These are some dramatic changes in extracellular space,” said Charles Nicholson, Ph.D., a professor at New York University’s Langone Medical Center and an expert in measuring the dynamics of brain fluid flow and how it influences nerve cell communication.

Certain brain cells, called glia, control flow through the glymphatic system by shrinking or swelling. Noradrenaline is an arousing hormone that is also known to control cell volume. Similar to using anesthesia, treating awake mice with drugs that block noradrenaline induced unconsciousness and increased brain fluid flow and the space between cells, further supporting the link between the glymphatic system and consciousness.

Previous studies suggest that toxic molecules involved in neurodegenerative disorders accumulate in the space between brain cells. In this study, the researchers tested whether the glymphatic system controls this by injecting mice with labeled beta-amyloid, a protein associated with Alzheimer’s disease, and measuring how long it lasted in their brains when they were asleep or awake. Beta-amyloid disappeared faster in mice brains when the mice were asleep, suggesting sleep normally clears toxic molecules from the brain.

“These results may have broad implications for multiple neurological disorders,” said Jim Koenig, Ph.D., a program director at NINDS. “This means the cells regulating the glymphatic system may be new targets for treating a range of disorders.”

The results may also highlight the importance of sleep.

“We need sleep. It cleans up the brain,” said Dr. Nedergaard.

This work was supported by grants from the NINDS (NS078167, NS07830, NS028642).

For more information about neurological disorders and the latest neuroscience research: http://www.ninds.nih.gov

NINDS is the nation’s leading funder of research on the brain and nervous system. The NINDS mission is to reduce the burden of neurological disease – a burden borne by every age group, by every segment of society, by people all over the world.

About the National Institutes of Health (NIH): NIH, the nation's medical research agency, includes 27 Institutes and Centers and is a component of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. NIH is the primary federal agency conducting and supporting basic, clinical, and translational medical research, and is investigating the causes, treatments, and cures for both common and rare diseases. For more information about NIH and its programs, visit http://www.nih.gov.

NIH...Turning Discovery Into Health®

Reference

Xie et al “Sleep initiated fluid flux drives metabolite clearance from the adult brain.” Science, October 18, 2013. DOI: 10.1126/science.1241224

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[D_Glenn]

Another possible mechanism I just noticed is the blocking of norepinephrine (noradrenaline) to cause the Glial cells to shrink (mentioned in the article I linked and also quoted above).
That's another possibility for 'Getting the Kan/ Water trigram over the Li/ Fire Trigram' as we're trying to increase the flow of blood and qi, but not by using the adrenal hormones of norepinephrine (noradrenaline).

Adrenal Hormones = Fire



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[yeniseri]

D_Glenn,
Why don't you look at this paradigm:
1. Taijiqan, qigong/neigong/baquazhang, etc as mediators via the SNS and the HPA axis
2. Participation of these and others can better "anti viral immune response" and decrease markers associated with the inflammatory process and decrease levels of depression/anviety and allow for better quality of life i.e better coping, better behavioural regulation.
3. Elements of deep breathing, a relaxation response, one pointedness!!! (homeostasis) thereby affecting cellular immunity over time.
4. Elements of laboratory markers: C-Reactive protein, myokines like IL6, IL8 etc and exercise (do a PubMed search) TNF@, NFKb (beta) since some recent tai chi student use these as markers and how taijiquan influence them.
5. Here is a link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=taichiquan

[D_Glenn]

D_Glenn,
Why don't you look at this paradigm:
1. Taijiqan, qigong/neigong/baquazhang, etc as mediators via the SNS and the HPA axis
2. Participation of these and others can better "anti viral immune response" and decrease markers associated with the inflammatory process and decrease levels of depression/anviety and allow for better quality of life i.e better coping, better behavioural regulation.
3. Elements of deep breathing, a relaxation response, one pointedness!!! (homeostasis) thereby affecting cellular immunity over time.
4. Elements of laboratory markers: C-Reactive protein, myokines like IL6, IL8 etc and exercise (do a PubMed search) TNF@, NFKb (beta) since some recent tai chi student use these as markers and how taijiquan influence them.
5. Here is a link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=taichiquan

Thanks for the link [ edit I believe you meant to use this spelling - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=taijiquan (gets more results)], but I believe all those connections are already well established and have been studied. I'm looking at the latest studies that are still ongoing and not yet linked to anything like TJQ or qigong.

I'm also not saying that this is the only thing occurring, it's all those things and more, but all those things they're looking for and testing can't really explain some of the things that are happening. Not getting sick is kindergarten or elementary school in BGZ circle walking, that's assumed, and why I don't even mention the lymphatic system of the body. That's child's play. If they measured stuff like increases in EPO, HGH, or LH, that's where it starts getting interesting, but that's still just the middle school to high school level. This stuff I'm talking about is college level in cultivation.



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[Deadmonki]

D_Glenn,

Given some of what has been posted I thought this recently published research maybe of interest. I have not read the original Journal article, nor thoroughly investigated the veracity of the research.

"Kevin Lee, PhD, chairman of the UVA Department of Neuroscience, described his reaction to the discovery by Kipnis’ lab: “The first time these guys showed me the basic result, I just said one sentence: ‘They’ll have to change the textbooks.’ There has never been a lymphatic system for the central nervous system, and it was very clear from that first singular observation – and they’ve done many studies since then to bolster the finding – that it will fundamentally change the way people look at the central nervous system’s relationship with the immune system.”



http://neurosciencenews.com/lymphatic-s ... logy-2080/

The original journal article;

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/va ... 14432.html

Abstract

Structural and functional features of central nervous system lymphatic vessels

One of the characteristics of the central nervous system is the lack of a classical lymphatic drainage system. Although it is now accepted that the central nervous system undergoes constant immune surveillance that takes place within the meningeal compartment1, 2, 3, the mechanisms governing the entrance and exit of immune cells from the central nervous system remain poorly understood4, 5, 6. In searching for T-cell gateways into and out of the meninges, we discovered functional lymphatic vessels lining the dural sinuses. These structures express all of the molecular hallmarks of lymphatic endothelial cells, are able to carry both fluid and immune cells from the cerebrospinal fluid, and are connected to the deep cervical lymph nodes. The unique location of these vessels may have impeded their discovery to date, thereby contributing to the long-held concept of the absence of lymphatic vasculature in the central nervous system. The discovery of the central nervous system lymphatic system may call for a reassessment of basic assumptions in neuroimmunology and sheds new light on the aetiology of neuroinflammatory and neurodegenerative diseases associated with immune system dysfunction.

“Structural and functional features of central nervous system lymphatic vessels” by Antoine Louveau, Igor Smirnov, Timothy J. Keyes, Jacob D. Eccles, Sherin J. Rouhani, J. David Peske, Noel C. Derecki, David Castle, James W. Mandell, Kevin S. Lee, Tajie H. Harris and Jonathan Kipnis in Nature. Published online June 1 2015 doi:10.1038/nature14432

[D_Glenn]

A couple weeks back I started looking up some NCBI studies of an Esoteric Western research into the Primo-vascular (PVS) / Bonghan channels and there's several recent studies that show it's these channels found in the brain that are the possible link between the nervous system, CSF, and the lymphatics. The PVS is also suspected to be an alternate route for nerve signaling and neurotransmitters, also a link between skeletal muscle movement and movement in the PVS, etc.

I believe that the PRofChina is/has been doing a lot more medical research into this and also publishing their own articles in Chinese as it was a good 6 years ago when my teacher first mentioned that the 15 Luo Mai are most likely are the Bonghan channels.

Thanks, I'll read your article later.

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[yeniseri]

It is safe to say that there is always bi-directional flow (communication) via the CNS and that science is limited to the extent of describing the breath of this system/actions. The lympathic system relies on movement/varied movement/activity, etc to "cleanse"and "invigorate", and clarity of mind at some level, is a great benefit of proper training and adherence over time.