BGZ Circle Walking=Moving Cerebrospinal fluid (CSF)

[D_Glenn]

Your points are excellent only because what we call qigong today, as you already know, was named daoyin, neigong, neiyanggong, yangshengong, etc along with a juxtaposition of words and phrases that denoted elements, varieties and/or type of self cultivation.
There is a body of work though retroactively re-engineered within the concepts of what is called recently Meditative Movement though based on non scientific principles but applied to jingluo/meridian dynamics and it is sensible.

Here is one link:
http://www.qigonginstitute.org/html/pap ... ercise.pdf

I started studying martial arts in in 1996 and if you asked Dr. Xie about Qigong, then he thought you were talking about 'breath work' or 'breathing exercises', so we quickly learned to use 'Daoyin' instead.

Here's an old thread on the topic: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7728

PHILLIPS!!! Ah, those were, overall, some good times, good times.

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Here's a very recent link/ thread for a FREE translation of the 'Yinshu' (Book of Daoyin), a Daoyin book from about 180 B.C. - viewtopic.php?f=7&t=22286

***
I'll check your link. Thanks.

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[D_Glenn]

I know that some members here have done some research into the ideal 'brain waves' achieved during meditation, I never paid it much attention before, but I was hoping someone could get me up to speed on all that?

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[yeniseri]

I know that some members here have done some research into the ideal 'brain waves' achieved during meditation, I never paid it much attention before, but I was hoping someone could get me up to speed on all that?

.

Utilize PubMed and do a search. There are elements associated with Meditative Movement (a Western catch all paradigm for stuff like taijiquan, qigong, yoga, etc) that has promise for a deeper analyses of practice of 'neijiquan' Some recent studies doucumenting the effect of taijiquan exercise on brain entrainment and its effects on various parts of the brain are quite promising!

[yeniseri]

Here is a specific study of taijiquan within the field of neuroscience on how it effects brain 'synthesis' with areas of development that can be tracked with instrumentation as a per and post paradigm and what this means. I have my own thoughts but the direction is well document so all is good.

http://journal.frontiersin.org/Journal/ ... 00074/full

My commentary is basic to the extent that:
1. We do not know which style (am guessing Yang )
2. Which branch (New Style Beijing Forms???
3. Why was specific style chosen over other styles?
4. How about comparing study practice vis vis at home practice? A notable trend is that during these types of studies, the subjects follow the study protocol and do well for that period but when they are in their home environment, practice usually falls off or become nonexistent so that training effect is lost!

[KEND]

Interesting, if highly technical, article. As indicated a small sample, more research needed. I see 'old' was 57 and 59 and up, mere striplings. As you pointed out the style was not mentioned but it was probably a standard used in tournaments, which are probably more aerobic than the park Yang or Wu style

[D_Glenn]

Yenisiri, thanks for the pubmed tip. Some interesting stuff about meditation in there but the closest thing I found is an article on Zen meditation.

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To summarize, this thread's topic, there are several things going on-

First is that the 絡脈 Luo Mai network is basically what we now know as the Primo Vascular System, and this is what we mainly want to work on when doing the IMAs.

So, to follow the postural requirements in order to relax the head and torso, then breathe and hold the Dantian solid. This will begin to work the Small Orbit of the back 絡脈 Luo Mai, which we'll just call the Du Mai; and this will eventually roll around to the front and be flowing down the front of the body. This can be achieved when just doing Zhan Zhuang. Look at the flow like a water spigot on the side of your house, only this spigot is always on, just slowly trickling, we can just turn it up slightly. The more standing you can comfortably do in that session, the more you can turn the knob and increase the flow.

The fluids in the Primo Vascular System are called the 'Yin Fluids', meaning they're not just water but have to be refined/ extracted/ distilled through a combination of food, liquids, enzymes, air we breathe in, and chemicals, enzymes, and energy that's already in our bodies. These 'Yin Fluids' are precious. They're easily used up and wasted, and meanwhile always steadily declining as we age, which makes them hard to replace as we can only distil a small amount from the foods we eat- as the foods that provide us with these types of raw fluids will quickly cause digestive problems if we eat too much of them. So the amount that we can turn up the spigot and increase the flow through the 絡脈 Luo Mai is based on one's current health, their cultivation level, and seasonal weather to some degree as the fluids prefer a warm outside temperature and moderate climate to be viscous. The level or degree that you have preserved and cultivated your 'Yin Fluids' can overcome the seasons, but it's not something you really want to push, unless you're in a fight, but for daily practice it's better to pay attention to the environment and change your daily practice with the seasons.

So this Small Circulation can come back to the Dantian and into the Belt Vessel that surrounds the Dantian and this vessel connects to all the other Vessels of the body and this is called opening the 'Large Orbit/ Circulation', and this is that feeling of a whole body 'Song' (Relaxation) where your body is 'Chen' (sinking), but can move, quickly if need be, but even when moving outward (opening, extending, etc.) there is still sinking.

This is something you want to practice slowly as we want to increase the flow on a daily basis in order to use the hoses, as a hose left sitting without fluid in it, will just dry and wither, like a garden hose left sitting out in the sun, and then break or split when you go to use it. So we want to extend the reach of the hoses, going out to the extremities, and strengthen and expand the walls or lining of the hose.

We can turn up the flow of the Large Orbit instantly if we suddenly recognize that we're in a fight, but your network and capability of doing that, is only up to the point that you've expanded it to.

In Standing/ ZZ practice and 'Slow form work' you will want to be increasing your overall capacity. But in fast striking drills you want to, moreso, practice on going from zero to 100 in a couple seconds. Where you achieve that full Circulation and fighting strength, but also work on 'Chen' (sinking) and keeping your Dantian Full and continually bringing breath, energy, fluids of the body back to your core, at a faster speed then you are sending them out. After you reach the point where you're almost out of breath, close down that session and wait a good 10 minutes or so, where your body is completely cold again, and exercise that going from zero to 100 again. This is called starting 'Cold' (Leng).

So Circle Walking is still, naturally achieving all those things - as it lies between standing exercises and slow forms, but it also has a fast strike, or two, when changing directions, so it contains all the other practices in one. So it does work to achieve the 'Large Orbit', and since there's more mental relaxation, it can be greater than what you achieve in all those practices done separately. This is a goal but overtime it becomes a secondary goal, as it's more meditation than exercise, and will impart a greater change or effect on the brain and spirit. Which will in turn have a greater effect on the health of the body. There's a saying, something like 'Most of the greater illnesses or diseases start as an illness of the spirit.'

So there is something different happening. And I think it might be that through this meditation, combined with, eventually, fast rhythmic movements; a lower stance so the thighs are using and causing a lot of blood to move throughout the body, but the breath and blood circulating is just under one's vo2 max; a focused 'Yi' and eyes focused on the hand or center of the circle; you're ideally practicing in the same place/ room, so there's nothing distracting your 'Xin' (Heart-mind) as the visuals that are blurring by are the same; no other unexpected sounds to distract; and then you suddenly trick your brain into a state where the glial cells cleanse. And, as it's been described by Chinese of the past and present, Circle Walking is like getting a good night's sleep. This is more called something like 'bringing energy up the thrusting meridian'.

The stuff about the glymphatic system clearing out beta amyloids is really interesting and strange to me, since I've been taught that one of the main reasons that Circle Walking is/ was a requirement to practice, is how it clears out the concussive effects of fighting and the free sparring and the cumulative effects of a mistimed shock into your own head, when one is learning to 'Bao Fa Li'/ 'Bolangjin' during training practice.

There's some even more interesting things in the cultivation texts that could be correlated to this functioning of the Glymphatic system and CSF but I'm going to have to go back and decipher the classics better, or refresh my memory of those texts.


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[yeniseri]

Interesting, if highly technical, article. As indicated a small sample, more research needed. I see 'old' was 57 and 59 and up, mere striplings. As you pointed out the style was not mentioned but it was probably a standard used in tournaments, which are probably more aerobic than the park Yang or Wu style

1. I see no difference between Beijing Yang and 'traditional' taijiquan. As a former tournament competitor, my problem has been with nandu (degree of difficulty movement criteria) which is not the norm. Both in Beijing Yang and traditional. if you do the form with a middle stance bent knees, there will be an increase in heart rate as opposed to a 'high stance' as in Sun style!
2. The few studies that mention Yang style in depth, they do mention the 10-15 warmup, the actual sequence 8-20min then the cool down period of 10-15 minutes. I worked with 1 individual who was attempting to do a study of some sort to do an age range of young, middle aged and 'old' (to be defined??? e.g. young =21-35, middle aged 45-60, senior 65-75 !!! This was/is not suffiently sorted out but by looking at age range perhaps some sort of difference may be detected.
Example of a study that distinguishes the young, middle aged and elderly
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15154294

Many people tend to downgrade Beijing Yang 24 form but as I stated in a previous comment, it is a nice form without the special stuff one is often promised in taijiquan learning but assiduous practice beyond the 2-3 month learning phase can reap benefits for those seeking life nourishing practice!
https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jp ... 5_219/_pdf

[Doc Stier]

yeniseri: Wow! No difference between the Beijing Simplified 24 and traditional Yang Style Tai-Chi Chuan forms? Really? Seriously?

If that's true, can you name any acknowledged Tai-Chi Chuan masters who developed their skills by solely or primarily practicing the Beijing Simplified 24 form and who in turn also teach only that form to their students? Thanks.

[yeniseri]

yeniseri: Wow! No difference between the Beijing Simplified 24 and traditional Yang Style Tai-Chi Chuan forms? Really? Seriously?

If that's true, can you name any acknowledged Tai-Chi Chuan masters who developed their skills by solely or primarily practicing the Beijing Simplified 24 form and who in turn also teach only that form to their students? Thanks.

We all know that the Beijing 24 forms specifically is a shortened version of a Yang Long Form, without regard for the secret 'traditional' Yang style, whatever that may entail.
Almost all of research will show that these 'abbreviated forms are the one that have shown some degree of efficacy in 95% of clinical trials. A balance study showed that specific postures as opposed to a form (whether short or long) had the capacity to better posture for elderly!
It is safe to say that any "form' done assiduously for 11-18 minutes is called a 'traditional form regardless of origin based on the said long form:
Chuánrén /傳人” = “可繼承遺志的人” = “suitable/worthy/able to//carry on//the will, intent, inclination of xin//of the old ones'. Transmitter of lineage
Zhangménrén 掌 門人 Gate keeper
90% of these clinical trials have no relationship to Chuánrén /傳人 or Zhangménrén 掌 門人 meaning that good teaching methodology is the key so that means if you access a relaxation response, be active, practice some degree of fitness within the paradigm of elements of the 8 postures contained in the balance of elderly study some benefit per balance will be gotten.

The raising of heart rate (HR), as you know, its degree with bending of the knee in taijiquan practice will happen regardless of whether one practices Beijing 24 shi taijiquan or A traditional Yang style form.

I am incapable of naming any individual who has gained success since, as you know, Beijing shi taijiquan is a creation of the Beijing Institute of Physical Culture so any so named form is still a subset of Yang style taijiquan. I am aware of many 'traditional teachers who use Beijing shi taijiquan as a template for further study.

Here is an Empty Mind film presentation of the grandson of Cui Yishi teaching a Beijing related form.

[Doc Stier]

Yawn.....

That's what I thought!

Of course, the standard manner of performing the Beijing Simplified 24 can be modified to make it more congruent with the movement principles of the traditional Yang Style Tai-Chi Chuan forms, but in my experience with both, even when this is done, regular practice of several continuous repetitions of the Beijing Simplified 24 set, without any breaks or pause, is not as beneficial in any way as the regular practice of one long traditional Yang Style form set requiring approximately the same amount of time to perform, imo.

[kenneth fish]

A poorly written paper that does nothing to add to the body of published work on the effects of training and practice of complex movement in senior adults - there is far better work out there.

[yeniseri]

Yawn.....
That's what I thought!

Of course, the standard manner of performing the Beijing Simplified 24 can be modified to make it more congruent with the movement principles of the traditional Yang Style Tai-Chi Chuan forms, but in my experience with both, even when this is done, regular practice of several continuous repetitions of the Beijing Simplified 24 set, without any breaks or pause, is not as beneficial in any way as the regular practice of one long traditional Yang Style form set requiring approximately the same amount of time to perform, imo.

1. The Beijing shi taijiquan was never meant to be a replacement for what may be termed a traditional Yang style or family taijiquan only obviously determined by the form of 11-20? min duration.
2. I am not sure who uses the criteria of assuming that practicing Beijing shi taijiquan x times as a replacement for doing a long form of duration 11-20? min but..................it is a terrible idea whomever uses that thought process. Strategy wise it would make sense to presecibe the antidote based on the severity of the condition. I have no idea why someone would think that but that is fine as long as that person sees a benefit. ALso absolutely nothing wrong with practicing numerous repetitions of x form.........
3. My personal position is that the elements of Beijing shi taijiquan are more akin to individual practice/ individual posture practice and a type of generic rougong training routine as opposed to its elements taken out of what is termed traditional Yang taijiquan.

A poorly written paper that does nothing to add to the body of published work on the effects of training and practice of complex movement in senior adults - there is far better work out there.

Absolutely!

[D_Glenn]

I know that some members here have done some research into the ideal 'brain waves' achieved during meditation, I never paid it much attention before, but I was hoping someone could get me up to speed on all that?

.

Utilize PubMed and do a search. There are elements associated with Meditative Movement (a Western catch all paradigm for stuff like taijiquan, qigong, yoga, etc) that has promise for a deeper analyses of practice of 'neijiquan' Some recent studies doucumenting the effect of taijiquan exercise on brain entrainment and its effects on various parts of the brain are quite promising!

Doing a site search on RSF I found this post-ban quote from Chris McK:

3) Theta range - this range occurs between approximately 4 and 8 Hz. If this range could be characterized by any subjective condition, it would have to be daydreaming. People who are seemingly awake but exhibiting strong theta predominance often appear to be 'zoned out', stationary, in a trance, etc. However, and perhaps surprisingly, conditions in which theta frequencies are predominant can appear very conscious and even active, with the individual displaying even seemingly complex physical behaviors. Showering, extended periods of interstate highway driving, and other activities in which repetitive behaviors have become 'automatic' are good candidates for producing theta states. Moderate to deep trance states also often correlate with theta-predominant measurements.

~ http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=18969&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=39

***

So when one has energy going around the small circuit, which then opens the large circuit (aka macro cosmic orbit, greater heavenly circuit, etc.) then this is considered 'passing through the first stage, or 'going through the first set of mountain passes'. (see http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=22337) This can be accomplished in sitting, standing, or slow moving exercises, and even long-distance running, as I've previously stated, (but running is also using up about the same amount of energy as there is being cultivated), only the mindset and good, euphoric feelings are the same as they are in the, I'll use the term that you prefer, Meditative Movements or MM.

If one is doing a practice that they know by heart, and don't have to think about it anymore because it's such a simple movement, or something they've done for many years, then they can begin to make an attempt to cross the '2nd set of mountain passes', which is where the brain waves are predominately in the theta range and possibly trigger the glymphatic system to start flowing.

The key is that one has to first have the 'large circuit' flowing, are as Zhang Boduan calls it, 'Turning the Large Wheel', which I think refers to like a large wheel that humans would walk in to operate the winching of heavy machinery. (Like the human sized hamster wheels you may have seen in trebuchet to wind the ropes.) So in other words, just being in the theta range isn't going to likely be imparting the same things that Circle Walking does.

As to Andy's question about this happening in TJQ, I remembered that Chen Xiao Wang, after he found out I did BGZ, had said that the most important point of practicing TJQ is to reach the point where you don't have to think about the movements, you know them like the back of your hand and don't have to think about them anymore. In older times when people had all day to study the forms, then you could quickly learn the form, but in these times he breaks the forms into sections, [each about 16 moves or so I think] and only taught us the one section. He said to just devote all your time to learning one section, and then repeat that same section of the form for 1 to 2 hours, and then you will reap the greatest physical and mental health benefits. And then you can go on to either set aside a small portion of your practice-time, or practice longer, to begin to learn the next section of the form. [And this was more of a criticism towards the school that was hosting him-] Practice this way, instead of spending years struggling to learn the whole of both forms and never getting to realize and experience the health benefits or feel the meditative aspects, while only experiencing all the stress and emotions that damage the five organ complexes.


So, you can reach the same mental physical state, but there's a saying in BGZ, 'We have only 2 steps (bai and kou), while TJQ has 108 steps.', meaning Baguazhang only has 2 steps to learn before it's considered a Meditative Movement, while TJQ has 108 steps to learn before it becomes a Meditative Movement.


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[yeniseri]

So, you can reach the same mental physical state, but there's a saying in BGZ, 'We have only 2 steps (bai and kou), while TJQ has 108 steps.', meaning Baguazhang only has 2 steps to learn before it's considered a Meditative Movement, while TJQ has 108 steps to learn before it becomes a Meditative Movement.

TCM/CCM tends to be at odds, with what is called science on many levels, or perhaps it is just the interpretation of the individual onlooker or practitioner. You note that baquazhang has only 2 steps and taijiquan has 108 but subjectively this isn't part of the learning methodology. Generally speaking, and in a scientific abstract view, Meditative Movement begins with a Relaxation Response.
Per mechanics and how to engender per "neijiquan" one starts (generic view) with some level of neigong method. In zhanzhuang, before standing you make sure you are aware of tension in basic areas as gluteal (tendency to tighten) chest, shoulders and knees. You become aware then you cognitively try to control over time..........

This is just my view only and how I interpret how I imagine I understand TCM/CCM mechanics on teaching methodology.
Perhaps I need more explanation on what you mean by BGZ having 2 steps and TJQ having 108! In the present literature, Yoga, Pilates, etc are also part of the Meditative Movement paradigm!
How would you explain someone receiving some level of benefit in Beijing 16 or 24 shi taijiquan? ------>>>> Meditative Movement in 16 or 24 steps.

One cannot see CSF in the performance of BGZ but one may see more refined movement (degree and length of practice over time). In TJQ the slowed movement has been documented to be within the 0.1Hz, where heart coherence can reverse heart wave variability (in a clinical environment).

[D_Glenn]

So, you can reach the same mental physical state, but there's a saying in BGZ, 'We have only 2 steps (bai and kou), while TJQ has 108 steps.', meaning Baguazhang [Circle Walking] only has 2 steps to learn before it's considered a Meditative Movement, while TJQ has 108 steps to learn before it becomes a Meditative Movement.

...Perhaps I need more explanation on what you mean by BGZ having 2 steps and TJQ having 108!...

I have to admit that I don't understand your post.

To clear up your question, In Baguazhang's CIRCLE WALKING there is only 2 steps to learn (Bai Bu and Kou Bu - Swinging Open Step and Hooking-closed Step, are the two steps you use to walk around in a circle- inside leg does a 'bai' step, outside leg does a 'kou' step), of course there's all the other things happening, namely trying to hold all the physical, and postural requirements, (the same postural requirements in Taijiquan), but in TJQ there's 108 movements = 108 steps of the feet. But this saying is more of jest, or joke, as there's obviously a lot of repeated moves or steps in the TJQ form but it still leaves a good number of different things that one has to learn and be mindful of. Where the goal of the practice is to be doing something without having to be mindful of them (Wuxin), and only using 'Yi' while the 'Xin' is quieted.

BGZ's Circle Walking and TJQ's Forms are both considered to be 'Xing Zhuang' (Moving Meditation).


You do realize that what I wrote supports your view on the benefits of the shortened forms?


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