notes from recent Daoism seminar.

[flints]

WD, can you say more about what you mean by mastering the physical and in particular why it is "quite a physical endeavor and the learning beyond that is stressful?"

[Wanderingdragon]

We strive in our forms and physical practice to reach a point of doing without thinking, like walking as a simplistic example we do not think to put one foot in front of the other. Now a person recovering from a tragic accident that leaves them near paralysis must make that effort, for every step this is the stress of thinking. The information given is learning but that information must already be within our banks of knowledge before we can begin doing, this is the practice, once we have learned to do with out drawing on the stores knowledge, this is the actual doing, no thought, the conquest of the physical. The virtuous study begins by doing what is right, that which is conducive to your physical mental and spiritual comfort. Now I am speaking in Simplistic terms because that is where I am, to understand the inner workings is to surely know the virtuous study.

[Miro]

I find WD 'closing the sphincter' to be slightly misleading, or is this how others would also describe it ? When I learnt it was more of a 'sucking up' of the genitalia but even then the actual point resides between these two areas.

You are right, sucking up is much better description but I would go even further. Many teachers/students say that tongue should be pressed against upper palate (or roof of the mouth), that sphincter/anus/genitalia should be pulled up, that one should turn one's vision and hearing inward (during meditation or zhan zhuang) etc. I consider it all wrong. When someone presses tongue against palate, it causes tension which actually prevents circulation of jingqi in small heavenly orbit. The same is with pulling that spincter up. It is enough just relax the tongue and because the tip of tongue is light while the root of tongue is heavy, when one relaxes the tongue, then heavy root goes naturally down and that means light tip goes up - no need to do anything. When one concentrates on lower dantian, it becomes highly centered or concentrated (It pulls everything inside) like a black hole and therefore huiyin is sucked up. But it is passive process, not active one. When one enters good inward concentration mode, vision and hearing turn inward by themselves too. Do not press, do not pull, do nothing, just focus on the center, keep that One and everything will come.

Miro

[Mr_Wood]

But it is passive process, not active one.

I agree. This is why sometimes I just continue the practice without referring to old notes or lessons as to let things become more natural and instinctual. I have found myself progressing on occasion without tuition but I think it is also good to discus and I am grateful to Mix for bringing the topic up and all others who have contributed.

My point from the start was to emphasize that you cannot teach the practice if you are only in the study.

I can't see any harm in introducing people to it though as long as they are not given funny ideas and remain grounded. the practice is a positive thing and can help people. I see what your getting at WD but I also like what mix said

My attitude is that when people need a better teacher, they will find one - but at the start of the road, normal people like us are there to help people along

Many of us would have no access IMA and related practices if it was only deemed acceptable to receive lessons from a virtuous master.

[Wanderingdragon]

Yes Mix has opened a wonderful discussion, you may also notice that you stated, you know refer to your old notes and earlier study, subtleties have come to you progressively. As I have mentioned, that we do not mix up the physical with the vituous study. Mr. Miro has mentioned it is a passive process, though it has still been mentioned, the sucking up and tongues positioning as part of the process. It is subtle and more passive as we learn to master the physical, finally virtuous, meaning " that which is conducive to your comfort , physically, mentally, and spiritually", this is an individual journey, we are our teachers, our virtue is looking inwardly honestly, our virtue is knowing that we cannot see inwardly no matter how we look if we have not been honest with our relation to what us outside. But now it sounds like the mumbo jumbo, unless you are truly involved with the process.

[Mr_Wood]

this is an individual journey,

Indeed it is but also helpful when those me meet along the journey can help with directions from time to time, they may just have a rough idea, they may be very knowledgeable but ultimately it is ourselves who have to find the way. Now who's talking mumbo jumbo

[KEND]

With reference to my previous post, the eyes can be used initially to establish flow but after a while become unnecessary.The eyes can be closed and mind blank once breathing pattern is established. Learning from a book can help but often there are subtleties that only a teacher can show you, the written instructions, if accurate can corroborate the teachings. I tryand relate the paths of energy to actual physical parts of the body, the path from hui yin to tongue through the spine, the front through the aesophagus

[D_Glenn]

I find WD 'closing the sphincter' to be slightly misleading, or is this how others would also describe it ? When I learnt it was more of a 'sucking up' of the genitalia but even then the actual point resides between these two areas.

You are right, sucking up is much better description but I would go even further. Many teachers/students say that tongue should be pressed against upper palate (or roof of the mouth), that sphincter/anus/genitalia should be pulled up, that one should turn one's vision and hearing inward (during meditation or zhan zhuang) etc. I consider it all wrong. When someone presses tongue against palate, it causes tension which actually prevents circulation of jingqi in small heavenly orbit. The same is with pulling that spincter up. It is enough just relax the tongue and because the tip of tongue is light while the root of tongue is heavy, when one relaxes the tongue, then heavy root goes naturally down and that means light tip goes up - no need to do anything. When one concentrates on lower dantian, it becomes highly centered or concentrated (It pulls everything inside) like a black hole and therefore huiyin is sucked up. But it is passive process, not active one. When one enters good inward concentration mode, vision and hearing turn inward by themselves too. Do not press, do not pull, do nothing, just focus on the center, keep that One and everything will come.

Miro

It depends on the individual person and how flexible, or loose their frenulum under the tongue is. Mine was pretty tight so at first I could just press the tip into the curve of the jaw bone above my front teeth, but I kept building the strength of my tongue and stretching it out. Everyday practicing curving my tongue backward until I could finally get the tip all the way back to where the hard palate/roof of the mouth ends and goes up into the soft palate (of course practicing this while also practicing Baguazhang, although I'd also work at it while watching television, reading, etc.). There's like a small cliff, or ledge rather, right there where you can feel a bit of the top of the hard palate, you can kind of hook the tip of your tongue there and let it rest, but there's also a key point right above there that you then want to use the tip of your tongue to forcibly press at about a 25 degree angle and pressing out towards your own nostrils. This point can be needled from the outside, by a tcm doctor, but the needle comes in through the back of one nostril until it hits the point from the opposite side that your tongue will be pressing. You don't want to constantly press it, just press, hold, and then let the tip rest back on that cliff. It's a powerful feeling and effect if you have it done by an acupuncturist and it's never really been touched before, but we feel that when using your own tongue you can actually get a stronger effect as you are pressing and stimulating the point from the proper side.

It takes time to loosen up your frenulum and your tongue will be achy, like a sore muscle, but with time it will become strong and resting the tip of your tongue in that spot will feel natural and will actually feel more comfortable then when it's laying down flat, tip behind your lower teeth/ jaw.

Being able to press that point is crucial in the higher stages of cultivation practice, BTW, as you will be timing the pressing of that point with other things happening.

FWIW

.

[mixjourneyman]

I cringe to think of the possible fallout of this, , but the 自然 natural goal od daoism is to be able to cultivate self at any time.
Whether we cultivate ourselves sitting, standing, walking, sleeping, or even without the tongue to the top of the mouth, whether we are aware or not of our qi, there is always potential to 修道 cultivate dao.

[Wanderingdragon]

Haha ! no fallout, just necessary for you to understand what you are saying, "you" in general terms, to avoid the fallout

[flints]

I have to say I am very partial to the things Mix is saying as it accords very well with what my teacher says and what i experience. I do agree that real advancement in these matters is only gained in the process of doing, but I think you need to first, believe. Belief is developed most easily by meeting a teacher that you cannot fathom. Once you have belief, you must practice the physical but never without being mindful of the energetic. This is long and tedious and always slower process than one thinks it is. Whichever of the TCC masters said it's like standing on a pile of rice paper, stacked up a single sheet every day, seems right. And extra thin rice paper at that. But eventually you start feeling things and eventually you start being able to do things, and then you can do them with others. Regardless of all that, reading even imperfect things originating from good sources is helpful to me. And what Mix writes really resonates and in some cases clarifies... for me.

[Overlord]

interesting. aside from the obvious, how does this differ from focusing on the "golden triangle", upper lip below your nostrils), or the sensation of your breath, or similar buddhist meditation?

Hi Vagabond,

What a good question you touch here~
Like 24 years ago, my friend lends me two books: one on Shaolin Hard Qigong, and the other one on Daoist alchemy. And I found that for Xiao Zhou Tian 【小週天】, the small celestial heaven are actually flowed into two direction. The Shaolin one ascend qi front ren meridian and descending the du meridian, while the dandao method ascending the du and descending the ren.

It is only four years ago a friend introduce me to Kryia yoga that I realize that for some reason, Shaolin Buddhist probably is more influenced by Indian yoga.

But then again, the recent book Wu Yi Xin Yao 【武醫心藥】 by Guo Yang suggested that the Ren meridian ascending and Du meridian descending is how early Chinese believed the meridians flow. I have absolute confidence in his understanding. And it make much more sense.

I have no answer here though. But my gut feeling tells me it is important to build the ren ascending and du descending pattern probably before you go the other way around.

One can also call one fire method and another water method. And of course the breathing method is therefore different.

[Wanderingdragon]

How bout someone break that down to laymens terms, we are not all versed in the meridians, are they front, back , north or south MIX

[Wanderingdragon]

No matter, this that is mentioned above, is one of the subtle changes I was speaking of when directing intent, to swallow helps to recognize and control the gate that directs the flow.

[D_Glenn]

How bout someone break that down to laymens terms, we are not all versed in the meridians, are they front, back , north or south MIX

In a healthy person qi is naturally rising like water evaporates. The Ren Meridian (Conception Vessel - CV) starts at CV1 (Huiyin) in the perineum and rises up the centerline on the front of the body.
The Du Meridian (Governing Vessel - GV) starts at GV 1 (between the anus and tailbone) and rises up the center of the back, around the head, and down the face where it meets the Ren meridian.

Touching the tongue to the soft palate connects the Ren and Du; Hollowing the chest and tucking the tailbone under and deep breathing into the abdomen begins to reverse the flow of qi in the Ren Meridian and starts a circuit of qi flowing up the back and down the front of the body, this is called the 'Xiao Zhou Tian' (Small Heavenly Orbit/ Microcosmic Orbit). This is where you don't really want to put your mind on 'Qihai point' (CV6), because qi is already there, instead think about bringing it a little lower to CV4 (Guan Yuan Origin Pass) where it can enter inside and go straight to the area called 'Duhu' (Earth Door) which is above CV1 and GV1 and then continue along the circuit up the back, etc.

This is where it's really important to strongly clench up the pelvic basin which is the perineum, anus, and that whole lower area, because flowing the Ren Meridian in reverse can end up causing a collapse of qi that could, over time, result in a groin hernia, or other potentially worse situation. It may not happen during the time of practice but could cause a weakening of the meridians and fascia that are working to prevent a hernia from occuring. You may not be doing anything strenuous when circulating the superficial Microcosmic orbit, but later when moving some furniture is when the hernia may happen.


.