Sparring With Your Teacher..

[leifeng]

I understand sparring with fellow student. I also understand shifu showing me the application of a few moves or random drilling of a few techniques but if I ask for a full sparring session the result is me lying flat on the ground in a few seconds, then having to pay 100 RMB for taxi to go back home and taking a few days off to heal. I think the younger teachers that are somewhere between the traditional arts and sanda (kickboxing, boxing, grappling,...) can do a sanda like sparring kind of stuff with you but if you find an old school guy it is really difficult to explain the difference of sparring and fighting to them. Once I tried to explain how people do sparring in sanda and the teacher told me if I don't knock you down in few moves then we are not doing XY. I don't know whether it is a good thing or bad thing but I feel somewhere between the drills and getting knocked down in two or three moves you develop some skills.

[taiwandeutscher]

I understand sparring with fellow student. I also understand shifu showing me the application of a few moves or random drilling of a few techniques but if I ask for a full sparring session the result is me lying flat on the ground in a few seconds, then having to pay 100 RMB for taxi to go back home and taking a few days off to heal. I think the younger teachers that are somewhere between the traditional arts and sanda (kickboxing, boxing, grappling,...) can do a sanda like sparring kind of stuff with you but if you find an old school guy it is really difficult to explain the difference of sparring and fighting to them. Once I tried to explain how people do sparring in sanda and the teacher told me if I don't knock you down in few moves then we are not doing XY. I don't know whether it is a good thing or bad thing but I feel somewhere between the drills and getting knocked down in two or three moves you develop some skills.

Yeah, nicely put!

[Tiga Pukul]

Like leifeng wrote, full sparring is not going to happen. Sure you can try some random attack or combination of attacks on him, but we dont have protection on so usually it's already 'checkmate' after the intial attack, no matter what combination i try. No matter if i try faints, go as fast as possible, combine high-low, left right ect. Also because he knows me well, he knows my moves so is never surprised, sadly it's not the other way around. The past years i've learned to always look for a counter for his moves but up till now i never succeeded :-(

[taiwandeutscher]

One of my "sparring" masters always tells me that I will do ok, if I can counter 3 of his moves, never made it past his 2nd though, way to go!

[Niall Keane]

"In midsummer 1946.......When the master taught me, he constantly emphasised the practical application of the art. He himself would act as my opponent and order me to make use of Tai Chi Chuan techniques to disolve his attacks and furthermore to hit back at him. At the time I was in the prime of life being young and vigorous. I found this method to be deeply interesting. Morning and night I stayed with him under a relentless discipline, eager to obtain his secrets."

Cheng Tin-hung 4th May 1961

Cheng has described this experience elsewhere aswell, about sparring with Qi Min-quan, also he himself sparrred with his students up to a certain age then had his senior students spar up-coming fighters under his supervision.

Likewise when I mentioned my desire to fight sanda to my Sifu - Dan Docherty, he directed me to one of his senior students, a fellow Irishman - Paul Mitchel, himself a very accomplished martial artist. At first it was just Paul and me, but gradually others were invited to train. Paul gave these classes / training sessions 3-4 times a week, and on the days he didn't I ran to his house 10km away from where I lived, for 2-3 hours training and ran back. The classes ran for 3 hours and were usually 1/2 hour conditioning, 1/2 hour TCC tuishou and sanshou drills, 1/2 hour technique practice, 1/2 an hour wrestling, 1/2 an hour heavy sparring and 1/2 an hour hand and weapon forms to warm down.
In effect I sparred and wrestled with Paul 6 days a week for 10 years. during this time we travelled to Dan's camps and seminars, met with him at and after competitions, where he saw us go up against fully resistant opponents, and he travelled to Ireland several times a year holdiong weekend or week long camps there too, where he would carefully watch us spar / wrestle etc. and come up with pure gold dust advice and methods that we would apply to our fighting. He would step in and there would be short respectful exchanges. Advice was given once, if he came back a month or two later and it wasn't incorporated (some people just don't practice?) he would never bother giving further advice to such people. Harsh, but traditional I guess?

Now for myself as a coach, I too wrestle and spar my students. When doing so I bring it to their level, it is a delicate balancing act to challenge a student so they improve but not to dishearten them. For this reason I refuse to spar my combat sports athletes coming close to events, immediately after is fine, and can even humble them if they got an easy few wins, but beforehand they need to believe that they are invincible.

Its a tricky job, like Wudang Shan, one reaches a skydoor, believing it to be the summit, only to see stretched out before you another peak to climb. Some students find this disheartening, and feel a lack of progress. I have to remind them that their training partners are also improving steadily, as they do, and this cloaks their own progress. It is only at competiton or when some new lads arrive to train that they realise like Neo - "I know Kung Fu!"

[Wanderingdragon]

Two things, well three things, first those who have true skill and experience in fighting IMA, becaise of that skill and mastery, have absolute control, that said in sparring you feel it and you know it. Second because of that control when you feel it, you are absolutely greatful that control is there, to know what would be, were the full power released is highly intimidating. Once after a quick interaction in which I thought I was keeping up, my teacher YANKED my arm down to drill into my chest with his Phoenix eye fist, well he stopped just in front of my sternum, I saw his eyes, I felt the force of the yank ( almost gave me whiplash ), and the Phoenix eye felt like a loaded gun pointing at me, another instance, when trying to strike my fist was touched ever so slightly and again suddenly I couldn't move.
My teacher had sidestepped, his entire weight on my striking side immobilizing me while I felt the full force of his step/strike whiz past the side of my head as I was still facing forward frozen in time. My fellow classmates standing I. Front of me standing with stunned amazement on their faces, by the look and the feel I knew had I been fighting, my head would have been exploded. See, that's not sparring, that's being SCHOOLED ! my teacher casually walking away explaining the necessity of change and why never put focus on any one technique, you don't strike until moment of contact and inch power nope, not sparring, a lesson. scary,awe inspiring and motivational, I'm gettin' there.

[MaartenSFS]

Thanks for the thoughtful replies. Maybe one of the poll options should have been "We don't spar, I just get my arse kicked by him".

[Wanderingdragon]

I'm one to believe, if you CAN spar with your teacher, your skill levels are probably not that far apart, IMO even if he can kick your ass there's probably not much he can teach you, you're both just practicing.

[neijia_boxer]

I'm one to believe, if you CAN spar with your teacher, your skill levels are probably not that far apart, IMO even if he can kick your ass there's probably not much he can teach you, you're both just practicing.

probably why a lot of teachers put up a front, stay safe in their comfort zone of sycophant students, keep producing videos of doing apps on noobie students, and walk away with cash as someone who has high level "kung fu".
http://nysanda.wordpress.com/2014/09/24 ... tial-arts/

[Peacedog]

Some did, some didn't.

Typically the younger ones did and the older ones did not.

This really just comes down to practicality in a lot of cases.

If your instructor teaches full time and they are older, they probably don't spar much. It is too easy to get hurt and keep in mind that martial skills largely have a limited life span. Very rarely have I met anyone over 60 who could still fight and take a punch. I've never met anyone over 70 who could still do the same.

Younger guys fight. It is true in sport and in the real world.

If you are studying with an older guy, you can fight with his senior student, but you probably won't fight with him.

[Wanderingdragon]

Wrong, as I said and as is true the teacher you can spar with has little to offer past conditioning.

[Niall Keane]

Wrong, as I said and as is true the teacher you can spar with has little to offer past conditioning.

? thats just bullshit!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E ... ger_effect

[Wanderingdragon]

Thanks for the link Niall, you use quite a few quotes from past masters and such, I was shocked when you reminisced over the year 1946, until I realized it was an excerpt. When you speak of experience, I immediately here the scrap , the tussle , I know from that that you are in a situation that you may be able to win, even if your rucking about with a teacher or a senior student. Good for your learning, but also poor for the knowledge that goes unanswered, the why was I able to do that, because the teacher still doesn't know or you wouldn't have been able to ( as I said , as is true ). I like learning as much as the next guy , and I'll give your psyche study a read some time, or maybe not it's words , from a knowledgeable source no doubt but not yours. I like learning as I said , it leads to knowing.

[Niall Keane]

Look its like this, and really if I didn't respect much of what you post I wouldn't bother, but I'm a bit shocked with the suggestion that if one can spar with ones teacher they have nothing to learn from them bar conditioning.

For me I sparred for years with Mitchel before I could get the better of him, but he was a European kaoshu champ and a world shuai jiao champ and a 3x European tuishou champ. Every time I learned something new, every time he imparted post mortum critics that aided me greatly.

From my understanding the same is true for Dan and Cheng Tin-hung and his teacher.

For me I can spar beginners and ranked European pro sanda fighters (my students) who gain from the fact that I get to see them directly under pressure against me so have an intimate view not just a third party one. It allows me as coach to see their mistakes and offer constructive suggestions. And hell I seem just like my teachers and theirs to get results..
That's my personal experience, my own "knowledgeable source", and the empirical evidence that increases each sparring session.

But hey, what would myself, Mitchel, Docherty or Cheng Tin-hung know? There's so many much more successful tai chi players out there!

[Niall Keane]

The more I think about this....

Conditioning is never the difference between good fighters, something is majorly wrong if being gassed or hurt is a factor. Any fighter worth his salt is fit enough to last and knows how to actively rest during fights, it is only the lowest level of amateur or a fighter who has stayed way past his sell by date who finds conditioning a factor.

By your logic, if the only thing any sparring partner, instructor or not, can teach you is conditioning.... The strong beating down the weak, slow hands surrendering to fast etc... That sure as shit ain't martial skill! If that's what martial arts is, then better off weightllifting and running.

Not being able to learn from sparring partners coach or not outside of conditioning is the craziest shit I've ever heard! Maybe if sparring makes one go ape shit and use retard strength but I can't believe any serious fighter would ever agree to such a statement.

And if you get to spar someone with serious experience and learn nothing .. Just stop, just give up right there.. Cause its pointless then. It isn't limited to CMA, my own student Dec Gernon is a sparring partner for a k1 world champion out of vos and learns loads there too, a different approach if nothing else. Like, I'm dumb founded .... How the fuck can someone practice martial arts and come to the conclusion that the ability to spar with someone means they can't teach you anything. It makes sparring partners in every art, instructor or not, from boxing to sanda, pointless if all there is to learn is conditioning. World class Boxers would just find Homer Simpsons to flake into, not ex champs or up and commings. I don't know about elsewhere but here in Ireland - home of many a world champ boxer (way more than 4 million people should produce) , our boxers even our amateur champs spar and are coached by ex world champs. Maybe that's the secret eh?


Being able to spar someone coach or not means they have nothing to teach you... fuck that's the craziest statement I've heard in years!!!

I'm shocked!!!!