the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

There was a long, pointless thread about this teacher sparring thing a couple of years ago where WD had the same axe to grind. It's nice to see that now he can admit something about the practicality of his position in the context of this thread, but there seems to be a fixation there which doesn't help the discussion much.

Regardless, the poll results are interesting. Half spar and the other half doesn't.

Sparring and fighting are completely different. My teacher used to spar with his students all the time. Now that he 20 years older he still spars but much less often. While he can still take a punch and still hit like a freight train the important part is staying healthy and taking care of your body.

Now I define sparring as practicing fighting. Sparring is not fighting. It is practice. This allows you to adjust the speed and contact and what is allowed and what isn't. It gives you time to focus on specific skills and develop those skills. As Niall said, there is no point in just beating students up in seconds. They won't have time to learn anything or practice anything. Even when sparring someone with much less time practicing and skills than yourself you can still practice your own skills and techniques.

Agreed. Sparring isn't fighting, but it can turn into it if egos are bruised or from a lack of control. The whole thing about having to compete to learn how to fight flies in the face of everything I've experienced. Working with different people, each with a different temperament, comes close enough for me, whilst still being safe. Sometimes it turns into a brawl and you are amazed at what comes out. I'm not learning to prepare myself in case I'm attacked by Ninja in my sleep. If I can hold my own against Shifu that will be enough for 99% of anyone I may possibly run into. :-P

I think it was Pro MMA fighter Eric Paulsen once said, that his martial art only got better after doing sport fighting. Because all the apps he taught in seminars we out the door and he realized what worked and what didnt in "as legal as it can get" fighting. He said his experience in the cage and ring for those few minutes was worth more than 6 months of training and sparring.

I totally agree. sports fighting has taught me way more than any sifu has.

To be clear, we go at it pretty hard. Often people will stop and ask to spar/fight (you never know which one it is!). I feel happy for you that you have learned a lot by sport fighting, but I don't think that it is the only way by any stretch.

CMA are sometimes referred to as "quick fight"
meaning things should be over rather quickly.

none of the teachers that I have met over the yrs, would one be able to
really "spar" with in the sense of being able to break off the encounter, regroup
and then start again. Either they engaged and it was over or not, "not very likely ",
they disengaged. The mind set is different, its not about being equal
They did let others attack them or try things on them
and one was able to feel what happened. I would not call it sparring as is
normally portrayed

when the US Military attacks, they try to use overwhelming force, speed and
and strategy allowing no possibility of a counter if possible. Which is kind of funny at times
when reading about people talking about fairness or rules in war.
.

in many of the post the commentators always seem to refer to "if someone faced this guy or that guy" ect
with both having equal skills, if the skills are equal its really about the person, the CMA idea always has been about
the skill, hence the development of different styles and methods in an attempt to give the "person" an advantage using a different
"style or method"

Things like "cardio" while important may not be as the skill itself is for what are called "quick fights".
If one intends to enter a ring, and fight there, then conditioning probably has an equale to or greater factor then
then the skill itself.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=93 ... 42&fref=nf

does any one think the old guy, could go more then 3 rounds? I dont but then he doesnt have to

windwalker wrote:CMA are sometimes referred to as "quick fight"
meaning things should be over rather quickly.

none of the teachers that I have met over the yrs, would one be able to
really "spar" with in the sense of being able to break off the encounter, regroup
and then start again. Either they engaged and it was over or not, "not very likely ",
they disengaged. The mind set is different, its not about being equal
They did let others attack them or try things on them
and one was able to feel what happened. I would not call it sparring as is
normally portrayed

when the US Military attacks, they try to use overwhelming force, speed and
and strategy allowing no possibility of a counter if possible. Which is kind of funny at times
when reading about people talking about fairness or rules in war.
.

in many of the post the commentators always seem to refer to "if someone faced this guy or that guy" ect
with both having equal skills, if the skills are equal its really about the person, the CMA idea always has been about
the skill, hence the development of different styles and methods in an attempt to give the "person" an advantage using a different
"style or method"

Things like "cardio" while important may not be as the skill itself is for what are called "quick fights".
If one intends to enter a ring, and fight there, then conditioning probably has an equale to or greater factor then
then the skill itself.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=93 ... 42&fref=nf

does any one think the old guy, could go more then 3 rounds? I dont but then he doesnt have to

Yes, This is what confuses me when I hear " sparring with your Teacher ", and why I say any teacher you can spar with, cannot be that far above your level, if within seconds you are not seeing his fist in your face or you are not looking up from the ground. As far as the ring, my theory is 1. those with such skill have no need of the ring as a proving ground, and 2. much like the fiction of Jet li in " Unleashed " if one did do it for the money , the promoters would want more of a show.

Wanderingdragon wrote:

windwalker wrote:CMA are sometimes referred to as "quick fight"
meaning things should be over rather quickly.

none of the teachers that I have met over the yrs, would one be able to
really "spar" with in the sense of being able to break off the encounter, regroup
and then start again. Either they engaged and it was over or not, "not very likely ",
they disengaged. The mind set is different, its not about being equal
They did let others attack them or try things on them
and one was able to feel what happened. I would not call it sparring as is
normally portrayed

when the US Military attacks, they try to use overwhelming force, speed and
and strategy allowing no possibility of a counter if possible. Which is kind of funny at times
when reading about people talking about fairness or rules in war.
.

in many of the post the commentators always seem to refer to "if someone faced this guy or that guy" ect
with both having equal skills, if the skills are equal its really about the person, the CMA idea always has been about
the skill, hence the development of different styles and methods in an attempt to give the "person" an advantage using a different
"style or method"

Things like "cardio" while important may not be as the skill itself is for what are called "quick fights".
If one intends to enter a ring, and fight there, then conditioning probably has an equale to or greater factor then
then the skill itself.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=93 ... 42&fref=nf

does any one think the old guy, could go more then 3 rounds? I dont but then he doesnt have to

Yes, This is what confuses me when I hear " sparring with your Teacher ", and why I say any teacher you can spar with, cannot be that far above your level, if within seconds you are not seeing his fist in your face or you are not looking up from the ground. As far as the ring, my theory is 1. those with such skill have no need of the ring as a proving ground, and 2. much like the fiction of Jet li in " Unleashed " if one did do it for the money , the promoters would want more of a show.

I think that the quick fight idea is very valid and something which should be developed. The problem is what happens when your initial attack fails to end it? For a very skilled martial artist this might be unlikely, except against another very skilled martial artist. When people of very similar skill fight, whether in a ring or on the streetz, the initial contact very rarely ends the altercation. This is the where sparring comes in.

As far as a teacher not being able to spar, that isn't true. My teacher could put me down in seconds if he wants to, he can also spar me for hours if he wants to. If someone is skilled then they have the control to Not end it quickly, or to do so, against someone less skilled.

Sanda IS a series of quick fights!

Once opponents are struck or thrown down or off the leitai the ref starts again (from where they went down of still on platform)

This makes for high paced action, that feels like a series of ambushes if the ref is any good and restarts promptly.

So sanda and sparring in such a format grants the experience of several "street encounters" with the added difficulty of facing a trained individual. Hence as experience is the best teacher, the best practical CMA fighters have leitai experience. Guys like Yang Lu Chan et al!

Sanda is not Muay Thai or MMA and Chinese martial artists should appreciate this and especially the explosivness involved in the format.

It has evolved to suit and test CMA.

Technique suffers under pressure, and if compliant tuishou is the summit of training then good luck with that and keep dreaming!

DeusTrismegistus wrote:

Wanderingdragon wrote:

windwalker wrote:CMA are sometimes referred to as "quick fight"
meaning things should be over rather quickly.

none of the teachers that I have met over the yrs, would one be able to
really "spar" with in the sense of being able to break off the encounter, regroup
and then start again. Either they engaged and it was over or not, "not very likely ",
they disengaged. The mind set is different, its not about being equal
They did let others attack them or try things on them
and one was able to feel what happened. I would not call it sparring as is
normally portrayed

when the US Military attacks, they try to use overwhelming force, speed and
and strategy allowing no possibility of a counter if possible. Which is kind of funny at times
when reading about people talking about fairness or rules in war.
.

in many of the post the commentators always seem to refer to "if someone faced this guy or that guy" ect
with both having equal skills, if the skills are equal its really about the person, the CMA idea always has been about
the skill, hence the development of different styles and methods in an attempt to give the "person" an advantage using a different
"style or method"

Things like "cardio" while important may not be as the skill itself is for what are called "quick fights".
If one intends to enter a ring, and fight there, then conditioning probably has an equale to or greater factor then
then the skill itself.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=93 ... 42&fref=nf

does any one think the old guy, could go more then 3 rounds? I dont but then he doesnt have to

Yes, This is what confuses me when I hear " sparring with your Teacher ", and why I say any teacher you can spar with, cannot be that far above your level, if within seconds you are not seeing his fist in your face or you are not looking up from the ground. As far as the ring, my theory is 1. those with such skill have no need of the ring as a proving ground, and 2. much like the fiction of Jet li in " Unleashed " if one did do it for the money , the promoters would want more of a show.

I think that the quick fight idea is very valid and something which should be developed. The problem is what happens when your initial attack fails to end it? For a very skilled martial artist this might be unlikely, except against another very skilled martial artist. When people of very similar skill fight, whether in a ring or on the streetz, the initial contact very rarely ends the altercation. This is the where sparring comes in.

As far as a teacher not being able to spar, that isn't true. My teacher could put me down in seconds if he wants to, he can also spar me for hours if he wants to. If someone is skilled then they have the control to Not end it quickly, or to do so, against someone less skilled.

Exactly. It's that control that separates a good teacher from the other fighters.

This article comes to mind: http://wulinmingshi.wordpress.com/2009/08/16/1929-hangzhou-leitai-tournament/

This quote I think is relevant.

Purely from looking at the results, Liu Gaosheng’s gongfu was no match for Cao Yanhai; but Cao Yanhai could not split a brick – how can we explain this result? The reason is, Cao Yanhai often sparred, so he was good at adapting his tactics. Liu, on the other hand, rarely fought: day-to-day practice only involved testing his palm strikes, which of course most normal people could not withstand. In the bout, even though Liu’s palm strikes were devastatingly powerful, he could not hit Cao, instead being knocked down. Thus, one should not mistake hard qigong for combat skill. In a real encounter, the winner will be he who reacts faster, hits harder.

At least in the case of leitai or any ring match format - sparring is mandatory to help prepare you. Reality is still different but a bit of sparring can only help.

So if instructors don't spar with students then if they create an environment that allows student to spar with others is also a good thing.

Personally I think it is more sensible to have variety and spar with the instructors and with students and with others in other styles and anyone who happens to be happy to spar. I also think the onus of finding sparring partners should be on the student especially if they don't get any from a school they train at. Once you spar with others you are likely to reassess the value of what you do and be more motivated or just move onto another school. At very least it will save you from complaining that you wasted years in the wrong place.