New article on the Miao Dao

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: New article on the Miao Dao

Postby jonathan.bluestein on Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:50 am

Graculus wrote:These claims are based on what the authors (i.e. Cheng Chongdou and Qi Jiguang) wrote themselves, so there is pretty clear evidence that there was a strong cross-cultural influence at that point. (Actually, I'm not sure if Cheng mentions a school, but Qi included the manual from the Kage Ryu in one of the editions of his works.)

Qi wrote that he was actually pretty impressed with the wokou sword use - and it seems that he started to equip his men with them as a direct result of what he saw on the battlefield and the deficiency of his own troops. However, as you note, this was principally on the NW frontier, rather than against the pirates.

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That is true, but they still don't say: "I copied the Japanese techniques and this is what we used, in whole or in part". As far as we can tell they could have simply be making comparisons, or including that material so the Chinese soldiers would know what he's facing. This is why I have presented both sides of the coin in the article. We have to judge by the appearance of the closest thing we have today, which looks and feels distinctly Chinese. My miao dao can be traced back to at least the 18th century (without the later pigua influence), with Chen Chongdou being late 16th. Not too far.

kenneth fish wrote:Have you given any consideration to the influence of the Marmeluke sabre or the Mongol sabres of the 12th and 13th century? There were short and long handle versions of both, and the blades, although not quite as long as the Miao Dao, are very similar in design.


No I didn't. Thanks for the heads up. 12-13th centuries are still slightly far from the 16th century of Qi Jiguang and Cheng Chongdou, but perhaps there is a connection. Do you have links to good resources one could read about these? Has any of these fighting traditions been authentically preserved to modern times?
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Re: New article on the Miao Dao

Postby chenyaolong on Sat Oct 04, 2014 1:15 am

Im curious how much of Qi Ji Guang's material is still directly practiced in China...... I dont know much about it, but in Korea there are supposedly 18 weapon methods taken directly from Qi Ji Guangs manual, which was edited and rewritten by a Korean king in the Joseon Dynasty. There is a performance of these methods regularly held at a palace in Suwon. I think I remember them having a Miao Dao in there too....
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Re: New article on the Miao Dao

Postby kenneth fish on Sat Oct 04, 2014 6:24 am

You should first look to Joseph Needham's "Science and Civilisation in China". Both Needham's contributors and many scholars within China have traced the influence of Middle Eastern metalurgy and weapons design on the Chinese particularly during the Mongol empire, but also later. China was very much in touch with the rest of the world. Technology flowed in from abroad and was broadly disseminated. A good example is black powder, which likely originated in what is now Persia/Iran.

There are a number of scholarly journals devoted to arms and armour of Asia. An internet search should provide you with titles and contacts. You should also contact the arms and armour section of The Metropolitan Museum of the City of New York - they have some very good folks there who will probably provide you with more information than you can handle (I used to know their Near East weapons curator, but he has long been retired).
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Re: New article on the Miao Dao

Postby jonathan.bluestein on Sat Oct 04, 2014 6:57 am

kenneth fish wrote:You should first look to Joseph Needham's "Science and Civilisation in China". Both Needham's contributors and many scholars within China have traced the influence of Middle Eastern metalurgy and weapons design on the Chinese particularly during the Mongol empire, but also later. Chinese was very much in touch with the rest of the world and technology flowed in from abroad and was broadly disseminated. A good example is black powder, which likely originated in what is now Persia/Iran.

There are a number of scholarly journals devoted to arms and armour of Asia. An internet search should provide you with titles and contacts. You should also contact the arms and armour section of The Metropolitan Museum of the City of New York - they have some very good folks there who will probably provide you with more information than you can handle (I used to know their Near East weapons curator, but he has long been retired).


I am not an historian, and generally more interested in the practical and theoretical aspects of the arts. However, Neeham's work I will read. Last year I too a free yearly Harvard course on the entire history of China, and if my memory serves me right, his name came up quite a lot.

EDIT:

Actually, not going to read that either. 220-280$ for a single volume (out of many), and less than 400 small pages at that? Hmmm... no. Not going to happen. Greedy bastard.
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Re: New article on the Miao Dao

Postby kenneth fish on Sat Oct 04, 2014 9:12 am

I would imagine that any university with an Asian studies department would have Needham's works in its library - and most major libraries in the U.S. and Europe have them as well. You might check your local university - the books are a very good starting point for study.
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Re: New article on the Miao Dao

Postby Kevin_Wallbridge on Sat Oct 04, 2014 9:44 am

Greedy bastard.


So the late scholar who died almost 20 years ago is a "greedy bastard?" What a classy thing to say.
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Re: New article on the Miao Dao

Postby jonathan.bluestein on Sat Oct 04, 2014 10:53 am

kenneth fish wrote:I would imagine that any university with an Asian studies department would have Needham's works in its library - and most major libraries in the U.S. and Europe have them as well. You might check your local university - the books are a very good starting point for study.


Good idea. I shall go visit Tel Aviv University sometime and check it out. I know some people there. Perhaps Prof. Meir Shahar can help. We've been acquainted since he helped review my book before I published it.

Kevin_Wallbridge wrote:
Greedy bastard.


So the late scholar who died almost 20 years ago is a "greedy bastard?" What a classy thing to say.


Greedy family, then?
Of course I wouldn't have said it had I known he passed away......
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Re: New article on the Miao Dao

Postby Miro on Sat Oct 04, 2014 2:23 pm

It is possible to find and download complete Needham's works on the internet.
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Re: New article on the Miao Dao

Postby yeniseri on Sat Oct 04, 2014 4:19 pm

My minimalist interpretation is as follows:
Based on the documented historical hagiographical background, some observant Japanese warriors, being unable to learn the Way of Miandao, being warriors, figured out its mechanics and incorporated It into their learning methodology. Over time, the average Chinese practitioners, knowing they would be unable to be taught, being quick witted and astute, picked up on the samurai technology and through re-engineering (again ;D ) gave mian dao a new life to be picked up by the 18th Chinese rabble (according to the Confucian ethic, martials artists were lower than scum, as I understand) began their own revitalization and rebirth programme of the miandao.
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Re: New article on the Miao Dao

Postby jonathan.bluestein on Sat Oct 04, 2014 10:58 pm

yeniseri wrote:My minimalist interpretation is as follows:
Based on the documented historical hagiographical background, some observant Japanese warriors, being unable to learn the Way of Miandao, being warriors, figured out its mechanics and incorporated It into their learning methodology. Over time, the average Chinese practitioners, knowing they would be unable to be taught, being quick witted and astute, picked up on the samurai technology and through re-engineering (again ;D ) gave mian dao a new life to be picked up by the 18th Chinese rabble (according to the Confucian ethic, martials artists were lower than scum, as I understand) began their own revitalization and rebirth programme of the miandao.


I would be more inclined to believe that if there had been a Japanese influence, it had been on the more ancient miao dao methods, and not the more modern variety. The latter is just too different to koryu styles, and has a lot in common with how empty-handed Chinese systems look today.

I think what counts the most are the training methods and the body mechanics. Countless styles share the same techniques, tactics and strategies... but how do they train them, and with what sorts of mechanics? These, and the structure they create over time, make for the greatest differences in my opinion.
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Re: New article on the Miao Dao

Postby Graculus on Sun Oct 05, 2014 12:13 am

I quite agree Jonathan. the modern Miao dao has no discernible Japanese influences – historically, there were influences, but these may not have been in the style of use, but rather in the idea of using that kind of sword at all. General Qi was obviously impressed by what he saw the pirates using, and by the quality of their blades. Impressed enough to say so in writing. He complained of the poor quality of the blades his soldiers were issued with (and their length) in some of his writing, and took steps to remedy the situation, including stipulating how the blades should be forged. That doesn't mean that he tried to copy Japanese techniques, but it does show an influence.

I know that some people quite vigorously deny the possibility of Japanese influence, claiming China had a strong enough sword legacy not to require any Japanese influence - although that may be a fair point, the writings from that period of the people involved with two-handed swords do suggest, at the very least, that they were impressed with the Japanese swords and technique, and there is (as yet) no evidence that this kind of two handed sword was being used in China in the 16th century independent of the Japanese influence (although there was two-handed sword use before that period). It is also worth noting that many of the wokou pirates were Chinese, and that there was a constant exchange on various levels between the cultures with shared sea borders, despite efforts on both sides to put a stop to it at various times.

As for Cheng Chongdou, his teacher learnt from a Japanese swordsman (Cheng writes this himself), so the influence is undeniably there; however, I suspect that the sword would have been used with a distinctly Chinese flavour, even at that time.

As you say, training methods and body mechanics shape an art, and modern miao dao looks like modern empty hand styles - I have no argument on that score.

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Re: New article on the Miao Dao

Postby yeniseri on Sun Oct 05, 2014 5:09 pm

My main point of reference was that prior to an understanding of Okinawan influence on karate, its South Chinese background and influence of Crane systems, many believed this was absurd until some astute researchers went back to the origins and found many of the training methods survived, the crane form itself was left intact (more or less) hence the visible observable link to a past heritage.

I am only saying that the 18th century re-engineering and teaching methodology allows for a heritage to maintain itself and be passed along. If not, it will be lost like many of its old associates never to be seen and appreciated.
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