New article on the Miao Dao

[jonathan.bluestein]

Thanks again for my friend Rick for hosting it.

http://cookdingskitchen.blogspot.co.il/ ... sword.html

Also, a good friend of Rick's is raising funds to help her get a diabetes aid dog - something which could save her life. Please spare 30 seconds to read what this is about before reading the Miao Dao article: http://cookdingskitchen.blogspot.co.il/ ... o-die.html

[jaime_g]

Nice article. I loved technical comparisons. Did you take a look at european longsabers?

http://www.burg-assum.de/langesMesser1.jpg
http://img.4plebs.org/boards/tg/image/1 ... 096781.jpg

[leftwose]

Very cool. I've been looking forward to this article for a bit. I love this weapon. I will reread this more closely when I get a chance.

I just wanted to note: The Miaodao I practice is an A/B form. The B side Counters and Opposes the A side. It can be trained as either A as a short form, B as a short form, AB as a form or A/B (B/A) as a two person form. I don't know if this counts as a fixed partner drill that you mention in the article. I learned it from a Baji guy whose material also included piguadao, 13 daqiang and fengmogun, but the flavor has always felt different to me than the pigua derived miaodao I see presented online.

I am hoping to visit 1 or 2 people this year to fill in these gaps.

Thanks for the article,
.conal.

[willywrong]

Thanks again for my friend Rick for hosting it.

http://cookdingskitchen.blogspot.co.il/ ... sword.html

Also, a good friend of Rick's is raising funds to help her get a diabetes aid dog - something which could save her life. Please spare 30 seconds to read what this is about before reading the Miao Dao article: http://cookdingskitchen.blogspot.co.il/ ... o-die.html

Nice article Jonathan.
I've personally always preferred the shorter tool along the lines of the 'Twilight Samurai '. I shortened our 6 foot pole/spear form down to a 5 foot pole just personal preference, only for me. Of course I still teach the 6 foot pole to my students. It means of course bridging the gap becomes an art form. Sword that long could be clumsy in a cosier environment.

[jonathan.bluestein]

Nice article. I loved technical comparisons. Did you take a look at european longsabers?

http://www.burg-assum.de/langesMesser1.jpg
http://img.4plebs.org/boards/tg/image/1 ... 096781.jpg

I love European swords, but didn't want to say much of them in the article since I have no experience with them whatsoever. In the future I hope to see if some Miao Dao gongfu can be adapted to Medieval longswords.

I just wanted to note: The Miaodao I practice is an A/B form. The B side Counters and Opposes the A side. It can be trained as either A as a short form, B as a short form, AB as a form or A/B (B/A) as a two person form. I don't know if this counts as a fixed partner drill that you mention in the article. I learned it from a Baji guy whose material also included piguadao, 13 daqiang and fengmogun, but the flavor has always felt different to me than the pigua derived miaodao I see presented online.

Very interesting concept! This is a very difficult form to create. Do you know the origins of your form? Who was the Baji teacher and who did he study it from?

Nice article Jonathan.
I've personally always preferred the shorter tool along the lines of the 'Twilight Samurai '. I shortened our 6 foot pole/spear form down to a 5 foot pole just personal preference, only for me. Of course I still teach the 6 foot pole to my students. It means of course bridging the gap becomes an art form. Sword that long could be clumsy in a cosier environment.

Well, a common length for a Miao Dao is 4'4 (135cm), and for a very tall person (6'4 and over) it might reach 5' (152cm). So again, works nicely with many staff techniques. Let us not forget it was intended as a battelfield sword, not something one would even think of using indoors or in a dense urban environment. Interesting though that they did use it on ships (fighting Japanese pirates), or at least similar weapons weapons of a similar length.

[jaime_g]

I love European swords, but didn't want to say much of them in the article since I have no experience with them whatsoever. In the future I hope to see if some Miao Dao gongfu can be adapted to Medieval longswords.

Sure. For example:



0:55-1:02, 1:32-1:36

[willywrong]

Nice article Jonathan.
I've personally always preferred the shorter tool along the lines of the 'Twilight Samurai '. I shortened our 6 foot pole/spear form down to a 5 foot pole just personal preference, only for me. Of course I still teach the 6 foot pole to my students. It means of course bridging the gap becomes an art form. Sword that long could be clumsy in a cosier environment.

Well, a common length for a Miao Dao is 4'4 (135cm), and for a very tall person (6'4 and over) it might reach 5' (152cm). So again, works nicely with many staff techniques. Let us not forget it was intended as a battelfield sword, not something one would even think of using indoors or in a dense urban environment. Interesting though that they did use it on ships (fighting Japanese pirates), or at least similar weapons weapons of a similar length.[/quote]

Read a book on archaeology the Chinese weaponry going right back to maybe 1000 BC covers and lots of dynasties blah blah. The average size sword from the archaeological record was 18 to 22 inches. Very short sword. Shorter weapons were preferred in mass combat as people presumably were very close together and not at the required distances to perform techniques. That's not to say that some long swords were not in use. I remember reading somewhere that the Romans defeated a lot of the Celtic and the northern tribes of Europe (German tribes) and it was mentioned that a lot of the German tribesman were cutting their own men down because their swords were too long. The Romans of course uses spear and a short sword from behind a big shield. Still a mailee. Quite sure that someone such as Andy S could give you more details and references on this.

[Finny]

Just FYI JB - Shinkageryu was founded by Kamiizumi based on Aisu Kage Ryu, which obviously was extant prior to the founding of the Shin(new)Kageryu. Kageryu was mentioned in some court documents - I think something was said about a mokuroku being found by the Chinese.

http://hoplology.com/weapons_detail.asp?offset=-1

I think you might be better served just discussing the miao dao rather than attempting the CMA/JMA analysis, but that's just me. Thanks for the article - very interesting.

[leftwose]

My miaodao comes down from Li Shu Wen, later in his life. Not through the Wudang line. I am never good with Chinese names, so I don't remember who it comes through after that. I will look through my notes.

.conal.

[jonathan.bluestein]

Just FYI JB - Shinkageryu was founded by Kamiizumi based on Aisu Kage Ryu, which obviously was extant prior to the founding of the Shin(new)Kageryu. Kageryu was mentioned in some court documents - I think something was said about a mokuroku being found by the Chinese.

http://hoplology.com/weapons_detail.asp?offset=-1

I think you might be better served just discussing the miao dao rather than attempting the CMA/JMA analysis, but that's just me. Thanks for the article - very interesting.

Thanks for the info. I will read into that, and if relevant will correct/change/add to the article. I think I was aware of this when I wrote that article (I did that research some 1.5 months ago, so I cannot recall everything I read which wasn't put in the article). I seem to recall that the supposed relationship between Chinese sword methods was with Shin Kage Ryu, which is why the existence of its predecessor style was not mentioned in the article. Now, were the techniques and methods in question extant in both styles and later with the predecessors of the modern miao dao? We cannot tell. Today at least, miao dao practice is very far from koryu styles.

[jonathan.bluestein]

Read a book on archaeology the Chinese weaponry going right back to maybe 1000 BC covers and lots of dynasties blah blah. The average size sword from the archaeological record was 18 to 22 inches. Very short sword. Shorter weapons were preferred in mass combat as people presumably were very close together and not at the required distances to perform techniques. That's not to say that some long swords were not in use. I remember reading somewhere that the Romans defeated a lot of the Celtic and the northern tribes of Europe (German tribes) and it was mentioned that a lot of the German tribesman were cutting their own men down because their swords were too long. The Romans of course uses spear and a short sword from behind a big shield. Still a mailee. Quite sure that someone such as Andy S could give you more details and references on this.

By the time more 'modern' miao dao saw combat, in the era of general Qi Jiguang, they were already using advanced projectile weaponry like crossbows. This changed combat tactics. For instance, Qi Jiguang's soldiers would first use up their crossbows hiding behind shelter/cover, and when out of arrows or with the enemy too close they'd charge with the miao dao. Also consider that they were mostly defending borders, so this was likely a common guard duty weapon. The great wall was already standing... Furthermore, the Chinese weren't using the Greek and Roman tight formations.

I have done some research on sword weights in the past. While the large majority of European swords in medieval times were 1.5 - 3 lbs (miao dao is 3-4lbs), surprisingly there were many designed reaching 10-15lbs, which were less combat but nonetheless carried into battle by very big and strong individuals.

[jonathan.bluestein]

...

Thanks for the interesting video

[nicklinjm]

Very nice article Jonathan! I was particularly interested in the training methods and fighting techniques for the miao dao, the photos of master Zhou and Ma Junxiang really bring the text alive

[kenneth fish]

Have you given any consideration to the influence of the Marmeluke sabre or the Mongol sabres of the 12th and 13th century? There were short and long handle versions of both, and the blades, although not quite as long as the Miao Dao, are very similar in design.

[Graculus]

A nice article in many respects, but I have to agree with Finny's point about the historical comparisons. As you say, the present day Miao dao is certainly Chinese, but back in the 16th/17th century, we cannot be sure.
With reference to Japanese influence:

I have also encountered claims that Cheng Chongdou, author of the Miao Dao book Dān Dāo Fǎ Xuǎn I mentioned earlier, was influenced by the Samurai school called Shin Kage Ryu (新陰流; ‘New Shadow School’), and that Qi Jiguang, author of the other Miao Dao book, Xīn Yǒu Dāo Fǎ, based his work upon a Japanese swordsmanship manual he acquired in battle.

These claims are based on what the authors (i.e. Cheng Chongdou and Qi Jiguang) wrote themselves, so there is pretty clear evidence that there was a strong cross-cultural influence at that point. (Actually, I'm not sure if Cheng mentions a school, but Qi included the manual from the Kage Ryu in one of the editions of his works.)

Qi wrote that he was actually pretty impressed with the wokou sword use - and it seems that he started to equip his men with them as a direct result of what he saw on the battlefield and the deficiency of his own troops. However, as you note, this was principally on the NW frontier, rather than against the pirates.

Graculus
http://www.ichijoji.blogspot.com