Korean Taekkyon

[taekkyunbunny]

Cover.
There are 2 more books. One in black and one in velvet.


All the people who appear in the book.
4 of the people present are from Hanpur (variation of Hapkido) for demonstration purpose in the book.
In the parathesis next to their names it states (demo). Translated from Korean.
That leaves 2 people. I stop here.


Just few pages...

[chenyaolong]

thats fair enough..... I have no problem with you sharing information or pointing out errors in what I have presented... but there are ways and means of speaking: Wude (Muduk in Korean).

I could come out and tell a whole load of shit regarding the Mantis world at present.... a fair bit about several well respected teachers... but there's just no point. Rather than putting other people down, it's better to just present the facts... no need to go name dropping or gossiping about teachers backgrounds... it's better to just present the facts regarding your own lineage's history and let people make their own mind up

[Andy_S]

Taekkyunbunny:

The sweeps and kicks at the beginning look like typical Taekkyun taught here in Korea, but some of the footwork and (as you say) the guard looks very different. Thanks for posting. But are you convinced of the veracity of this style? A LOT of Korean MArtists who have left Korea, with black belts in Hapkido have miraculously landed in the USA with entire new martial arts! Frankly, I don't know enough about Taekkyun to make a judgment.

And some of the Taekkyun people here in Korea do say that there are two kinds of Taekkyun: The folk sport (which is what you usually see) and a martial art, which is more used for self-defence. From what I have seen of that, it is fairly unsophisticated and lacks the nice flow of the sportive versions. And I have never seen or heard of weapons being used in Taekkyun - which to me, rules it out as any kind of military martial art and therefore raises questions over its use among semi-mystical ancient warriors.

As you probably know, there is another variant of Taekkyun which seems to consist mostly of jumping in the air with backward flying kicks. It claims to be from North Korea, but looks technically ridiculous as an MA. In one TV show, one of these guys sparred with a Kyokushin fighter and got a good shoeing: I suspect guys from "regular" Taekkyun, some of whom spar a fair bit and have good kicks and throws, would have fared better.

I think the images you include from the books you posted have been reprinted since then in Taekkyun books (possibly w/out permission - IPR in Korea was pretty weak until the last decade or so).

BTW, do you know anything about hanpur/hanpul?

I saw a couple of dusty old books about it on my very first trip to Korea (1989) and was always curious about it, because nobody I have spoken to since knows what it is or was. The only technique in the books seemed to be a forefinger punch fired from a cross-legged stance; there were also some anti-knife techniques done with what looked like a school ruler. To me it seemed more related to something like HsingI than Hapkido - but perhaps in Choi's early Hapkido (or Yawara, or Aikijitsu, or whatever) this kind of technique existed, and the Hanpul/Hanpur guys specialized in it.

Interesting discussion.

[taekkyunbunny]

To chenyaolong: Thanks for letting me post.

Well.... I am getting sick and tired of looking at the whole situation, so I decided to post it.

The "martial art" version of the taekkyun DOES EXIST, it has been passed pretty well in the hands of 2 people.

Practically whole Korea now has been brainwashed, along w/ other parts of the world who has seen the taekkyun's on youtube
now thinks Taekkyun as some weakly martial art....

I saw your 2015 video of Do Ki Hyun's class.... Now I know exactly what he teaches. Thanks for that.
I have also seen the other 2 teaching on youtube.
The world can give them credit for spreading that Taekkyun exists but not in that form. It isn't right.
It isn't right because that's not what taekkyun techniques are.

That book was published by the Hanpur leader who ever is running it. He saw (Song) taekkyun and wanted to preserve it at the least.
I heard the copyright of the book is also of Hanpur since he invested the money in shooting the whole thing and publishing it.
Also I don't think the other taekkyun federations want people to know that book is out there, it would put them in a strange spot b/c
it doesn't look like what they do.

The two people that come out on that book (not Hanpur related) is Ko Yong Woo (left middle person).
The other person is Lee Joon Seo (top left person). They are both WiDae that are alive.
From information I have gathered, I am confident I can say all 3 of the other federation leaders has never seen those moves in person.

That book shows more of what taekkyun is suppose to be then the other 3. If you look at the book,
interestingly enough, it shows jointlocking, throws, and strangely it looks similar to judo/jujitsu in lot of the grabbing moves.

To: Andy_S
I know what your are saying. Is this made up or legit? is what you are asking.
Not many people have seen WiDae's movement and techniques.
Like I said before Ko lives in the US but he goes out to Korea here and there to correct the 2 Widae schools full of students from other ones.
I also know Lee Joon Seo (the other Widae Master) he also has a school in Korea.
So there are total of 3. Its in infant state. The guys who are running it hasn't had much practice in WiDae taekkyun techniques.

You are going to have to wait until they come out full and you can judge for yourself.
You can judge it by looking at the moves and techniques itself.
Every martial art has a lineage or another form of martial art it came out of, so you can tell if they copied Judo or TKD, etc.
TKD looks like Karate b/c they do the similar kata's forms.
If you look at Hapkido they use the same techniques as aikido/judo/aikijujitsu.
BJJ looks similar to Kosen Judo, b/c thats where it came from.

From what I hear all the ones that have converted to WiDae has said few things I can post here.
1. They are surprised to learn that taekkyun has stances. Uniquely taekkyun stances. There are more than one.
2. The ki-hap DaeHan Taekkyun does is not right.
"It suppose to be Ik kuuuu not ek kuuuuu" (Taekkyun Ki-Hap). They go Ikuuu then Ekuuuu alternating. Ek kuuuu doesn't exist in taekkyun.
3. Wow, this uses punching almost as equal amount of kicking.

I don't know Hanpur or how it looks or much about it, only reason I know of them is they are the party who have published that book.

I can also tell you WiDae Taekkyun looks more similar to Kyokushin Karate, ITF TKD (some of the kicks), Muay Thai, Jujitsu (standing mainly), and Taichi.
If taekkyun had any ground fighting like BJJ, it hasn't been preserved well or didn't have much of it, all I know is even WiDae doesn't have it like in Judo/BJJ fashion, however does have techniques for it.

But you can tell its not derived from the 5 other martial arts stated above. When WiDae gets bigger and goes public you can see and judge it for yourself, instead of me
trying to convince you.

The "youtube taekkyun" will be easily be crushed by any of the hardcore martial arts out there in a match, which you already realized yourself.
Taekkyun was a "martial art" not some playground game as they are spreading it.
That's why I am found in disbelief when I see the taekkyun on youtube.

I am not a professional historian, and to read those old korean historical texts you have to know ancient chinese to read those.
But any information regarding subak and taekkyun by any translated history by a professional historian, it was either related to the military (hand to hand combat - no weapons)
and a competition matches.

The reason why taekkyun was considered military and also a game is because when they had matches it had rules, and when the taekkyun was done/practiced by military, it didn't have rules.
When done by the military it was done as a martial art (no philosophy like any of these "Do" martial arts now, just pure technique in taking out the opponent).

I don't know how a weapon would have went w/ taekkyun.

Kyurlun taekkyun in the beginning was trying to teach taekkyun in "martial art" way BUT after it picked up Kyurlun Taekkyun changed says many of their students.
It became competition art: Now you will see this "Taekkyun Battle" promoted by them (you can find them on youtube), that's why lot of them left.
Some moves you just can't use in a match like striking opponents joints. I heard Do Ki Hyun learned few of these from Song, and he used to show and teach
these in the beginning of Kyurlun federation when he started teaching.

I ask you to believe in what I post in good faith for now.

And if taekkyun is going to open up to the whole world public this has to be all corrected.
Or anyone who decides to learn taekkyun aren't getting what they are supposed to be getting.

[Andy_S]

Sure, am taking aboard all that you say, but I recall seeing those or similar photos of Song in a book years ago and was even shown the pressing the fist to the neck technique by a couple of guys I met very, very early one morning while drinking in Itaewon years ago! I THINK (IIRC) it was published by the Taekkyun guy in Busan.

At that time - when I first came to Korea in '89 and was looking all around Korea for MA - there were just two dojang for Taekyun, one in Busan and the other in Cheongju.

Most people in Korea back then had never even heard of Taekkyun, but purely by chance, I was put in touch with a dancer from Cheongju who had learned a bit of Taekkyun and she took me down there and showed me. A guy there, in a grimy little basement school, was a student of Chung Kyung-wha who demoed for me; he was pretty good.

I would add that Chung is a very nice man, and has done a lot to promote the art, in both MA schools and on univ campuses. As you probably know, his Cheongju-based organization now has a massive neo-traditional training hall, lots of govt sponsorship, etc.

I can't remember the name of the guy down in Busan, and never met him or his students, but if he is still around, he has been doing it for a long time.

I had an appointment to interview Lee Yong-bok years ago, but he never turned up and from what I could understand, seemed a bit past it. I think he was a late convert from TKD, and probably should have come to it earlier in life. His top student, who I did meet and who was pretty good, said he was very interested in the (then) nascent sport of MMA - but I assume he either changed his mind of did not do well in an early match, as Taekkyun peeps have made no impression on the MMA scene here, AFAIK.

Chenyaolong has had plenty of personal experience of MA, including with top mantis guys in Shandong, so if he vouches for Do, I have no argument.

[taekkyunbunny]

To: Andy_S
I see. I have never met any of the 3 major taekkyun federation leaders in person, so I don't know if they are nice or not. But I will take your word for it.

Like I said in my post, I give all of the credit they deserve for the work promoting the existence of taekkyun, but even Choong-Joo (your spelling is Cheongju) doesn't look like GM Song's taekkyun. As I am trying to tell you..... I don't know what the intentions of the 3 federations are. All I know is Lee Yong Bok approached Master Ko to do taekkyun together (not sure which year), and Master Ko declined for his reasons.
I speculate that Lee Yong Bok also knew that Master Ko has seen the most of what Song Duk Ki taught and wanted partnership. From what I know Master Ko and Lee aren't businessmen like the other 3.

Also I know Choong-Joo are recognized by the government as THE official Taekkyun of Korea, but I am telling you it doesn't look like GM Song's taekkyun.

From my information, even Chung Kyung Hwa's teacher (Shin Hwan Seung) hasn't seen those moves in person of that book, my point is they never learned it.
And as a witness of WiDae and having one of those books, I can tell you you can't learn WiDae Taekkyun from that book. That book only shows you categories of the techniques.

This is why I say the whole situation is a mess and someone or something needs to happen drastically to correct all of this.

And I hope the 2 current living WiDae teachers do something about this personally while they are live, not after they pass away. They are both in their 60's already.
It will be better them rather then their students, since they are the living witness of what Grand Master Song directly taught in his peak time.

[Andy_S]

SNIP
I don't know what the intentions of the 3 federations are
SNIP

Presumably to teach and spread their art? Which, to my eyes, all look pretty similar (as one would expect as they all stem from the same source): They are predominantly the "folk game" style of Taekkyun.

I cannot speak for Widae Taekkun, the only time I have seen it is in the clip you posted. And I agree that the stuff posted looks different to the Taekkyun that is current here in Korea. But if these masters don't come out of the closet soon, they are never going to make an impression. And if they pass away - it is going to be a tough job convincing people here in Korea that the only legit Taekkyun in existence has been learned by Americans! (And bear in mind all the Korean masters with dan grades in TKD and Hapkido who miraculously land in the USA with very their own "ancient and traditional" Korean MA...)

There again, I would disagree with you that the techniques shown by Song in the book you posted are, unique to Widae: I think they taught here as the "self defense" of Taekkyun, I think there are even clips on the Tube showing some of these techniques.

IIRC, Song gave a demo of Taekkyun back in the 1950s in front of Syngman Rhee. I would love to see footage of that, when Song was fairly young and athletic: it is a shame that most (all?) of his students came to him when he was well past his prime.

BTW, what is your take on the jumping and spinning kicks currently seen in Taekkyun? Someone here once told me that these techniques (apart from maybe the jump front kick) are not traditional, but are recent imports from TKD or Hapkido...?

And have you ever come across Subyokjigi? Very interesting art, there is only one master of it. The footwork and rhythm looks a lot like Taekkyun, the hand techniques look like a blend between Aikido and CMA. When I first heard of it, I guessed it would be the usual thing (ie a master of Hapkido mixes his stuff with CMA and a bit of stuff he invented, then claims it is an ancient Korean style) but having seen it and spoken to the master, I am convinced it is legit. FYI, he says that this is the original Subak -and it certainly "looks" Korean - but he can't use that name legally as the Tangsoodo/MooDukKwan peeps have registered it as a trademark!

[taekkyunbunny]

SNIP
I don't know what the intentions of the 3 federations are
SNIP

Presumably to teach and spread their art? Which, to my eyes, all look pretty similar (as one would expect as they all stem from the same source): They are predominantly the "folk game" style of Taekkyun.

Yes, but they are teaching strange taekkyun, I couldn't really call that taekkyun.

I cannot speak for Widae Taekkun, the only time I have seen it is in the clip you posted. And I agree that the stuff posted looks different to the Taekkyun that is current here in Korea. But if these masters don't come out of the closet soon, they are never going to make an impression. And if they pass away - it is going to be a tough job convincing people here in Korea that the only legit Taekkyun in existence has been learned by Americans! (And bear in mind all the Korean masters with dan grades in TKD and Hapkido who miraculously land in the USA with very their own "ancient and traditional" Korean MA...)

That is why even living in the US, he goes to Korea for the reason you stated. WiDae is happening in Korea mainly. And when you see it, it will make sense.
Like I stated, the 3 federations they mimic GM Song's taekkyun. And also the other WiDae teacher is active.

There again, I would disagree with you that the techniques shown by Song in the book you posted are, unique to Widae: I think they taught here as the "self defense" of Taekkyun, I think there are even clips on the Tube showing some of these techniques.

Sorry there is a limit to the information I can give and not give. I have to disagree w/ you, just wait until they release it publicly.
It isn't like how TKD does their sparring and have their self defense techniques (usually some hapkido jointlocking) taught separate.
From what I've seen its integrated into the martial art as a whole. There isn't JUST a self defense side then taekkyun sparring side, or taekkyun hardcore fighting side.
And I will state again the 3 books published by the Hanpul party is not the list of whole taekkyun techniques, its samples.

BTW, what is your take on the jumping and spinning kicks currently seen in Taekkyun? Someone here once told me that these techniques (apart from maybe the jump front kick) are not traditional, but are recent imports from TKD or Hapkido...?

Taekkyun does have jumping and spin kicks.
I can tell you taekkyun has jumping and spin kicks, however its not done like the ones in youtube.
I have never seen any of them jumping and spinning backwards at the same time neither does taekkyun have any of those 360 degree spinning round house, etc.
Jumping and spin kicking is not Taekkyun's main arsenal, its only small part of its arsenal/techniques.

And have you ever come across Subyokjigi? Very interesting art, there is only one master of it. The footwork and rhythm looks a lot like Taekkyun, the hand techniques look like a blend between Aikido and CMA. When I first heard of it, I guessed it would be the usual thing (ie a master of Hapkido mixes his stuff with CMA and a bit of stuff he invented, then claims it is an ancient Korean style) but having seen it and spoken to the master, I am convinced it is legit. FYI, he says that this is the original Subak -and it certainly "looks" Korean - but he can't use that name legally as the Tangsoodo/MooDukKwan peeps have registered it as a trademark!

Just remember if someone comes to you and it looks mixed or resembles a different art based, something isn't right.
In time in time it will be possible to see, just remember what I have posted here.

Like I said in the beginning in this modern time we live in only 2 sources of Taekkyun has been traced with confirmation that it is "taekkyun" or "subak". Song Duk Ki and the one in Hawaii..... Nothing has came out of Hawaii.

Also I stated above taekkyun compromises nearly half in punching/hand/(use of upper body) striking/techniques.
If that person is claiming he knows subak then it should resemble taekkyun's hand techniques, as written in history. And not just any hand techniques imported from other arts.
Taekkyun has some common but also uniquely taekkyun hand techniques.

I really hope everything will get straight. This will be a martial mystery that needs to be resolved.
Because I am in frustration, there are only few group of people who has seen WiDae, and when I compare it to what I see on youtube,
and all the movements from the 3 Federations including the official one, I am wondering how it all got like this.

[chenyaolong]

The video I posted of Taekkyon training 2015 only shows one class, where we were doing padwork with high kicks. It didn't show any of the basic training or partner training, which is more "Taekkyon-esque", ie low kicking and sweeping drills in pumbalki. The "dodgy pumbalki" you referred to I can explain too..... at the beginning of the clip was the warm up, you do pumbalki while first flicking the feet behind as a light stretch, and then you go onto slapping parts of your body as a self-massage, also for warm up. That routine is something Master Do created himself... he told me that.

I do admit the hand techniques are extremely limited and basic (but that is compared to arts I have done before - wing chun & mantis). But the amount of detail regarding kicking and sweeping impressed me.

[chenyaolong]

Here's another clip from our class

[chenyaolong]

Besides..... let's take this one step further.... how much of Taekkyon do you think Song Duk Ki really knew? I mean he learnt it what.... before the Japanese occupation, for how long, I can't imagine it was that long... then he didn't teach anybody for most of his life.... did he learn everything? What was his level? Living through so much political turmoil and war, did he have time to train that much? Had he forgotten stuff in that huge gap where he didn't teach?

I admit the Taekkyon I practiced didn't appear to be a complete system, but it is still in a fairly early stage of revival, an art which pretty much nearly died out has made such a huge come back. And people need to make a living... if they are teaching this hardcore warrior art, who will learn? Kids and hobbiests are where the money is..... do you think many of them really wanna fight? So making a folk sport which teaches principles of peace and encourages students to have fun and have a positive mindset is a really great thing in my opinion... especially in a society as stressful as modern Korea

[Patrick]

I really like the partner exercise, they look like fun.

[taekkyunbunny]

Besides..... let's take this one step further.... how much of Taekkyon do you think Song Duk Ki really knew? I mean he learnt it what.... before the Japanese occupation, for how long, I can't imagine it was that long... then he didn't teach anybody for most of his life.... did he learn everything? What was his level? Living through so much political turmoil and war, did he have time to train that much? Had he forgotten stuff in that huge gap where he didn't teach?

You can get a Korean speaking person to read the comment of who the people next to pictures on that page I posted above, to confirm w/ my translation if you wish.
The comments in the back of the book were Song Duk Ki's comments.

For Lee Joon Seo, the top most left, it says:
Song Duk Ki's taekkyun foremost student (currently). Lives in the same town as Song Duk Ki, and relationship is near like a grandson.

For Ko Yong Woo, the top middle left, it say:
Song Duk Ki's taekkyun student. Song Duk Ki has limitlessly appraised and complimented on his taekkyun ability.

Song Duk Ki has learned it from Im-ho (Not the abbreviation IMHO), he lived in the 18th century.
He learned from Im-ho (full time training) for 4 years then he continued to train w/ Im-ho for total of 18 years.
I can't speculate what has happened nor there is diary of what he learned but that is quiet some time.
This information I got it from various sources but needs confirmation.

Master Ko learned from Master Song since 1969.
Master Ko trained under GM Song for 15 years (** which has been the longest compared to anyone).

Master Lee's background is less known.
From what I know he doesn't like people knowing details of how he learned taekkyun, and he won't reveal it if your were to directly ask him.
But GM Song considered him as the foremost student (basically his next in line to be WiDae taekkyun leader).

Also judging from Master Ko's (taekkyun) martial art abilities, most of it has been passed on, it is complete system.
There are NO vagueness in his techniques.
To elaborate, you can ask him what this is for and he will SHOW you.
I don't want to comment too much on his skills as martial artist and compare w/ the other 3. I leave it for you to guess.

I admit the Taekkyon I practiced didn't appear to be a complete system, but it is still in a fairly early stage of revival, an art which pretty much nearly died out has made such a huge come back. And people need to make a living... if they are teaching this hardcore warrior art, who will learn? Kids and hobbiests are where the money is..... do you think many of them really wanna fight? So making a folk sport which teaches principles of peace and encourages students to have fun and have a positive mindset is a really great thing in my opinion... especially in a society as stressful as modern Korea

It is in early stages of revival, you are correct.
But that doesn't mean they should just make up any kind of warm up exercises and hand techniques that never existed in taekkyun.
Taekkyun has unique set of exercises for warming up, and its not stretching like TKD.

The reason why Taekkyun has value is you can call it truly a historical and an indigenous korean martial art.
They should be passing on what they learned, the parts they don't know they are speculating (mimic - can't come up w/ the word for this) and making up as they go.
They are adding in TKD movements and some Chinese martial art movements (depending on federation), but then like it makes much difference.
Like Andy_S said, looks pretty much the same.

I have taken different martial arts (you can check my profile if you wish).
And I have never seen some of the types of the techniques and strategy found in Taekkyun (WiDae) in other martial arts.
It only exists in Taekkyun. That's why this has big value in terms of martial art in general for the world.

General audience can do it and be fun.
Look at that WiDae seminar, look at the audience, they aren't the hardcore martial artists, its general from kid, to a working professional.

I saw the other video too. No comment for now on the video content.

[taekkyunbunny]

Alrighty. This thing is taking too much of my time. However, I really want to note few more thing here.

This is wikipedia page of Shin Hwan Seung and shows you some events of what GM Song has said while teaching them taekkyun
and seeing their progress.

https://mirror.enha.kr/wiki/%EC%8B%A0%ED%95%9C%EC%8A%B9

Many in taekkyun community who has been in this for awhile are well aware of the below.

That article tells you GM Song Duk Ki's complaints as he was passing taekkyun to them and what GM Song's feelings were about it.
Just read the information below and you judge for yourself. They even did this while GM Song was watching. What do you think the reason is? I keep that as an open question.

1. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

꽤 유명한 일화로는 부산에서 열린 1회 태껸대회가 끝난 후 태껸의 경기에 불만을 가진 송덕기 옹에게 태껸스럽게 하려면 활개짓을 더 잘해야 된다고 했다가 송덕기 옹이
"태껸은 품만 잘 밟으면 돼!! 왜 없는 동작을 자꾸 만들려고 해!!!"

translated below

Quite a famous story about how Song Duk Ki was not satisfied after watching the very 1st taekkyeon tournament that was held in Busan,
Song Duk Ki stated you have to know how to do Hwar Get Jit better then that, then he added,
"In Taekkyeon, you have to know how to step using Poom Bal Ki well!! Why do you keep making up movements that doesn't exist in Taekkyun!!!"

2. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

또한 그는 태껸 특유의 기합(?)을 "이크 애크"[5]라고 하였는데, 송덕기 옹은 "이크"[6]라고만 하였고, 도기현 회장은 저서에서 이에 대해 '맞다, 틀리다'라고 언급하지는 않았지만 송덕기 옹 당신은 좋아하지 않으셨다고 회고했다.[7]

translated below

Also he said taekkyun's unique Ki-Hap was "Iku Eku", but GM Song Duk Ki stated that it was just "Iku", Do Ki Hyun didn't mention if this was correct or wrong, however, Song Duk Ki was not pleased w/ the fact.

[taekkyunbunny]

Update on Taekkyeon.



There will be a seminar in 2015 11/29 in Seoul.

Mr. Lee Byung Han, who has trained under also Master Song Duk Ki has came out of silence after seeing how the taekkyeon recovery is going in Korea.
He is also not pleased with what he sees, and invites all taekkyeon practitioners to come and listen to what he has to say.
He stated there is a problem with what 'they' are spreading as taekkyeon. He said it vastly differs from what he recalls when he was training.

He didn't train long and he did it as mainly as hobby, however, he saw other federation leaders coming and also training.
He is going to show the public what he saw while training under Master Song, what Master Song was teaching him and what Master Song was teaching others.

He also recalls Do Ki Hyun coming and taking lessons.
He has briefly stated Master Song scolded Do Ki Hyun often saying what he was doing was tae kwon do, not taekkyun, and was not pleased with him as a student.

He will be testimony to what is true and what has become distorted.