Korean Taekkyon

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Korean Taekkyon

Postby chenyaolong on Wed Oct 01, 2014 6:03 pm

I've just been to my first class in Taekkyon, here in Seoul.

In case you dont know, Taekkyon is an indigenous Korean martial art which has a strong foundation in dance and is said to be a major influence on modern TKD. It's definitely very different to anything I've learnt before, coming from a Chinese martial arts background.

In the class, rather than a typical warm up, we start with practicing stepping in rhythm to traditional Korean music. Basic kicks and strikes are then added in, your breathing is also done in rhythm to the music. Rhythmic patting of the body to stimulate blood flow is also added in. After that kicking and striking pads was practiced, notably the striking reminded me of Tongbeiquan in its Fa Li method.

As for how practical the style is, I think it will need more time to really see, it is more a sport/game than a combat art, but I was watching the teacher doing some trips and sweeps on some students and the crispness and sudden power did impress me.

The class finished with a short Qigong type excercise.

So Il keep you posted on my training, I think its a fascinating style. If you want to know more Il update my website regularly as I learn more about the style.
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Re: Korean Taekkyon

Postby kenneth fish on Wed Oct 01, 2014 6:51 pm

As I recall Taek kyon is a sport, the object of which is to knock your opponent down without resorting to use of hands. I've seen it played - you should develop good footwork and kicking ability - but the context in non-martial.
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Re: Korean Taekkyon

Postby chud on Wed Oct 01, 2014 7:19 pm

chenyaolong wrote:In case you dont know, Taekkyon is an indigenous Korean martial art which has a strong foundation in dance and is said to be a major influence on modern TKD.


Not sure, but I think there may some disagreement on that issue. There was an episode of the Hiyaaa podcast where they interviewed a longtime TKD guy.
It's been over a year since I heard the interview, so my memory may be off, but if I recall TKD descended from certain types of Japanese Karate but out of national pride the Koreans didn't want to admit that, so they tried to over-emphasize the Taekkyon connection instead.
I may not be remembering accurately, so you should check out that episode of the podcast to verify...it was very interesting and is worth a listen anyway.
Last edited by chud on Wed Oct 01, 2014 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Korean Taekkyon

Postby chenyaolong on Wed Oct 01, 2014 7:31 pm

Kenneth: Yes, the context is mostly based on the game, but they talked briefly about other aspects of the art which are more self defense based. Like I said, Ive just been to one class, but as I learn more I will share.

Chud: Ive heard that too, TKD is mostly descended from Karate, like most modern Korean systems, the founder spent a lot of time in Japan training, then came back to Korea to make the art "more Korean". But I had read that he had a foundation in Taekkyon before he went to Japan: no doubt it is over emphasised.
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Re: Korean Taekkyon

Postby chenyaolong on Wed Oct 01, 2014 7:35 pm

Here is Taekkyon played as a game

http://youtu.be/Y8O32j8O75c

Here it is in a more martial context

http://youtu.be/rGy8Qkyih-4
Last edited by chenyaolong on Wed Oct 01, 2014 7:39 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Korean Taekkyon

Postby Andy_S on Wed Oct 01, 2014 8:14 pm

Research has proven that ALL the founders of modern TKD - about six different schools ("kwan") - learned karate in the 1940s. One also claimed training in CMA, and another (Choi Hong-hee) also CLAIMED to have learned taekkyun, but this has never been substantiated and is pretty irrelevant; It is clear from his early works that what he taught was karate. Taekkyun was not included among the original schools that learned TKD, and was never part of the TKD curriculum.

In fact, taekkyun came to within one master of extinction, which indicated that is was not particularly widely practiced in late Joseon, and most Koreans had never heard of it (let alone seen in) until the 1990s. (When I first saw it in 1989 on my first trip to Korea, there were only two schools in the country; a tiny little basement dojang in Chungju, which I visited, and one in Busan.) Only during the revival of "folk" ("minjeok) culture in the late 1980s and 1990s, mainly on campuses, did it come back to life, and its modern renaissance is truly remarkable. Today, that little dojang in Chungju is a massive, purpose-designed taekkyun center and cultural hub.

Now, it have been an INFLUENCE upon early TKD - after all, the Koreans really emphasized kicking, which was taekkyun's main tactic, and by some accounts, the name TKD was chosen as it sounded similar to taekkyun - but no taekkyun master was involved in the formation of either "traditional" or modern, sportive TKD. (I am not sure why, but I suspect that heads of the original TKD kwans wanted to promote the legitimacy of their new KMA, rather than the real, old KMA.)

The history of TKD is full of nationalistic nonsense in Korea, but over the last few years, there has been increasing admittal of its karate origins. I suspect most of this has come from the taekkyun people, who can clearly seen the difference, and know the early history of TKD.

I'd add that the taekkyun people have their own nationalistic myths, too. I will be willing to bet that taekkyun people have already told Chenyalong that taekkyun was "banned by the Japanese" (the implication being that the sly Japs had to suppress it in order to prevent deadly taekkyun experts from boldy opposing colonial govt.) In fact, modern researchers have found no evidence of any such ban in colonial era court and police records, but the claim continues to be endlessly repeated. I suspect that this came from an interview from its last surviving pre-colonial era master: He said that most taekkyun people stopped practicing after the Japanese authorities stopped people congregating for taekkyun matches: taekkyun was a betting sport and attracted some dubious patrons. But the point is: While there WAS a ban on large public gatherings, there is zero evidence of a ban on taekkyun, per se. In fact (and again, contrary to current Korean belief) the Japanese researched, preserved and renovated many aspects of traditional culture, from the alphabet and language to the nation's most famous Buddhist shrine (which was actually discovered by a Japanese).

Ken is right in that it was originally a folk game/sport, rather than a martial art: It had no weapons, so was useless on the battlefield. There again, it has some pretty sophisticated moves and training methods which are highly effective. For kicking and sweeping techniques - and most particularly for learning fighting rhythm - it has few peers in CMA.

And some people are now incorporating other material (hapkido, boxing, etc) into taekkyun, which is all good. But although taekkyun fighters claimed that they wanted to get heavily involved in MMA in its early days in Korea, you never seen them in MMA these days, I am not sure why; perhaps due to early defeats and a desire not to lose further face.

Even so, I really like what I have seen of it.

I wish my daughter, who is an excellent dancer, would take an interest.
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Re: Korean Taekkyon

Postby chenyaolong on Wed Oct 01, 2014 9:04 pm

Thanks for the background info Andy.

Dont worry, I have been in Asia long enough to know when to take things with a pinch of salt! I will always try to start my statements with "it is said" or "I heard", "my teacher told me" etc. I am certainly no expert, but I hope I can contribute to some interesting discussions and dont mean to make any outlandish statements
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Re: Korean Taekkyon

Postby Interloper on Wed Oct 01, 2014 9:05 pm

One of my first MAs was "old style" TKD, which was the construct of a bunch of Koreans, during the Japanese occupation of Korea (from 1910 to 1945), led by Gen. Choi Hong-Hi. Choi, who was a nidan in Shotokan karate. The forms that their original TKD schools used were nothing more than very superficially adapted Shotokan forms (Heian/Pinan). The "Blue Wave" school was among the earlier establishments that were part of the International Taekwon-do Federation, and the forms were referred to as the Blue Wave Hyung, or patterns.

I spent about 20 years in TKD and saw the development of the World Taekwondo Federation, which became the governing body for the Olympics-driven new version of TKD. They came up with their own set of forms (Taeguk and Palgwe), and moved away from both the cultural influence of the ITF (mainly because Gen. Choi had relations with the North Korean government) and the karate influenced hand techniques, becoming much more fixated on the kicks - particularly the fancy spinning and flying kicks. That's what most people associate with TKD now. But early TKD had powerful punches and hand strikes, more pragmatic kicking and less of the flying stuff.

The history was pretty much fabricated (I got this firsthand from some of my teachers, one of whom was a direct student of Gen. Choi). As was already noted in this thread, the Koreans needed to distance themselves from Japanese influences after the occupation, which had left a lot of bitterness. I had to spend much of my early TKD studenthood memorizing all of the dynasties of ancient Korea, punctuated with stories of tae-kyon being played in the emperors' courts for entertainment, how the "powerful kicks evolved into a fighting system," etc.

Some years ago, on one of my visits to Nepal, I had the opportunity to visit their Olympic TKD team, training for an upcoming Olympic year. They trained with their arms limp by their sides, doing only ax kicks, spinning back kicks, roundhouse kicks and crescents. I couldn't believe how the art had changed once it was made into an Olympic sport. Anyone watching the way TKD competitors spar today, might very well believe that the style came from the kick-dance of tae-kyon.
Last edited by Interloper on Wed Oct 01, 2014 9:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Korean Taekkyon

Postby Andy_S on Wed Oct 01, 2014 10:07 pm

Chenyaolong:

Sure, no criticism of your good self was intended. Enjoy the training, it is a fascinating and valuable art.

Have you checked out any of the Korean Shandong tanglang yet? There used to be a fair bit of it about - not sure about nowadays.

Interloper:

RE: Might very well believe that the style came from the kick-dance of tae-kyon
Right, this is why I wrote above that taekkyun was in influence (albeit an indirect one) on TKD. Typically, someone has a video posted on the Tube of taekkun and WTF TKD, pointing out the similarities and concluding - ta daaaaa! - that TKD was "obviously" a product of taekkyun rather than karate. I am not sure if this is foolishness, disingenuity or downright deceit.

FWIW, I know of a very high grade TKD master who has, in just the last few years, started learning taekkyun, which he know includes in his demos. There is also a new TKD form that incorporates some taekkyun moves. A cynic might say that all this is now becoming a trend to "reincorporate" taekkyun into TKD and perhaps further efface TKD's non-Korean origins.
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Re: Korean Taekkyon

Postby chenyaolong on Wed Oct 01, 2014 10:17 pm

I havent been to see them yet.... I spoke to one guy who knows some guys in Incheon who do Meihua Mantis, At some point I hope to visit.

Theres a big list of things I wanna do while Im in Korea, but as Im getting more English students, Im getting less free time to do them :-(
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Re: Korean Taekkyon

Postby windwalker on Wed Oct 01, 2014 10:35 pm

Have you checked out any of the Korean Shandong tanglang yet? There used to be a fair bit of it about - not sure about nowadays.


my first taste of mantis was from this teacher
http://www.oocities.org/mantiscave/parkchil.htm

back in the 70s..quite an interesting teacher.
with a very real back ground.

teaching taiji much later on, one of my only
korean students was learning taekkyon.
interesting style as many have noted.
Last edited by windwalker on Wed Oct 01, 2014 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Korean Taekkyon

Postby edededed on Wed Oct 01, 2014 11:11 pm

Hey - you don't know BambooLeaf, do you (or are you him)? He used to post on these boards frequently, was a very mellow dude, and also learned mantis from your teacher, later only practicing taiji (like you!)...
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Re: Korean Taekkyon

Postby Andy_S on Wed Oct 01, 2014 11:30 pm

Chenyaolong:

When did u land here and where are you living/working? We must get together for ales. I am shagging busy this month, but Nov looks a bit quieter.
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Re: Korean Taekkyon

Postby Alexatron on Thu Oct 02, 2014 1:11 am

Very interesting thread - especially for me about TKD. It's funny I did it for a few years along with Hapkido and never thought to question or research the 'history' that the instructor fed us. His version had TKD predating both Japanese and Chinese arts and the Japanese and Chinese learning from the Koreans :-)

Oddly enough he was Malaysian so not sure whether perhaps he believed it as well. He was a strange egotistical person. I've never seen so many certificates and trophies displayed in a persons living room as he had. Ironically when it came to practical combat he wasn't that great in spite of his 8th dan grades from both ITF and WTF schools and from memory 6th or 7th dan grades in Hapkido. I blocked one of his fancy kicks once during sparring with my elbow and he squeeled like a school girl and limped for a week. He had no tolerance for pain.

The Taekkyon sounds very interesting. Looking forward to future updates.
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Re: Korean Taekkyon

Postby chenyaolong on Thu Oct 02, 2014 6:24 am

Andy, Im living near Kyung Hee uni.... Ive been meaning to contact you, but been busy myself. Il send you an email and let you know my schedule anyway.

It seems pretty normal for Koreans to make outlandish statements: Zhang San Feng learnt martial arts in Korea before creating Taijiquan. Qi Jiguang was a Korean. The whole theory of Taiji/Yin Yang is Korean. the list goes on, doesnt surprise me a TKD guy would say that, although Im surprised a Malaysian would buy into it
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