Fighting IMA - intimidating?

[Bao]

All of my teachers, regardless of their style, regularly sparred with students. Like Kenneth Fish said, it was most often as scary and intimidating as it was instructional, although nothing matches the value of personally feeling high level skills directly applied to your own body the way they were intended to be used.

I thought it would be interesting to break down the discussion from this thread viewtopic.php?f=3&t=22350 and start to question why and if this is true?

Surely, it's just overexaggeration? Huh? And if it's true that fighting IMA pracitioners can be intimidating, why can't we see it in vids or in competitions? Or can we?

Now, from my own experience the statement and quote is very much the truth. But it must really be experienced first hand. IMHO, the most frightening thing is to feel that whatever slightly move you do, the opponent(teacher) seems to be one step ahead, always shifting and adapting his posture according to yours. There is no way I could even try to go full charge and try to run then down. Psychologically, the fight was over before it had started. In my first five-ten years of tai chi practice, I felt this over and over from various High level practitioners.

Now, take a look in the Ren Zhongxin clip. viewtopic.php?f=6&t=22297 We have a sanda practitioner who does not give 100% and let himself be easily handled. I can't say that he does it out of respect or if he just feels intimidated by the old man. Maybe the young chap could run him down, but we don't know what's happening inside his head? But I know that I would have reacted pretty much in the same way when I was younger.

What is you experience fighting against High level teachers and what happened inside your own head?

What is different in the experience compared to meeting others? Psychological implications?

[Michael Babin]

If you expect to have your head handed to you on a plate; you're more likely to have that experience... especially if you follow the rules set down by whatever environment you are training in. If you break all the rules, you may win or you may still have your head handed to you on a plate... that's life. But in the latter case, you may be shown the door in terms of being allowed to train with that teacher and you may even miss out on learning a variety of valuable lessons from him.

Personally, the good martial taiji teachers I experienced over the years were always a little scary to me when I was the dummy in demonstrations or when doing controlled sparring; my students say the same kind of things to me now that I have some long-term experience and skill at this stuff. I suppose it just makes sense to want to train with and learn from someone you feel has a definite edge over you... in at least some ways.

As others have said many times, but it's worth repeating, you can't learn how to handout pain without experiencing a fair bit of it yourself. Wanting to avoid the bitter training is what ensures that there are more youtube taiji clips of "empty farce", fat men pushing much smaller men and overly structured or overly sensitive pushing in the taiji world than anything valid from a functional martial perspective.

Not that there isn't a lot more to taijiquan than fighting ability -- there is -- but if you're teaching push-hands or fighting techniques you should have some idea of what it's all about...

[Wanderingdragon]

Two things, well three things, first those who have true skill and experience in fighting IMA, becaise of that skill and mastery, have absolute control, that said in sparring you feel it and you know it. Second because of that control when you feel it, you are absolutely greatful that control is there, to know what would be, were the full power released is highly intimidating. Once after a quick interaction in which I thought I was keeping up, my teacher YANKED my arm down to drill into my chest with his Phoenix eye fist, well he stopped just in front of my sternum, I saw his eyes, I felt the force of the yank ( almost gave me whiplash ), and the Phoenix eye felt like a loaded gun pointing at me, there were many of those instances, so yes it's very intimidating, as well as awe inspiring and motivational, I'll get there and third with a keen eye you can see it on video, though it's rare, as few with such skill are out filming their stuff and the few who are some have been posted here, as I said very few recognize what they see.

[leftwose]

when teacher was showing how san shou pao should be, I felt nothing. Not attacks, not counters. One of the scariest and most intimidating experiences of my life. It comes down to: when I attacked, he dissolved enough and not one ounce more. When he attacked, he dissolved his attack as soon as he felt me counter it. I felt AS IF I were doing it alone, but it did not feel LIKE when I just do the choreography alone.

Starting from that, how could we ever have a dialogue as if peers?


IMA is intimidating (and often presented as magic/irrational) because it is not easily understood. Your eyes will lie to you.

.conal.

[dspyrido]

What is you experience fighting against High level teachers and what happened inside your own head?

What is different in the experience compared to meeting others? Psychological implications?

I guess over 25 years ago intimidation used to come from fear of being hurt. Now it tends to be concern around the dumb mistake or the technique that should not have happened regardless of if it is on me or on someone else. It happens.

In the last decade the only intimidation from an IMA instructor simply came from one guy who I knew could hurt me. He had:

- real power that came from excellent control/coordination (amazing kung fu)
- knowledge of anatomical weaknesses
- a blatant lack of sporting good nature

Simply put if he wanted to pierce through and destroy he could. Intention to him was not a mythical concept of chi, awareness, magical power or manipulation. Underlying his taoist aloofness you knew he just had the potential to completely and utterly unleash. It was great to learn from him.

[MaartenSFS]

From what I have seen and felt, if skilled masters were to really go at it and use the arts as intended, bodies would start piling up..

[Wanderingdragon]

Actually you're right, today the skilled masters are black ops , special forces, or navy seals or some such thing, they are professional. Just like those who used these arts as necessity in historical terms. These arts were surely not created as the hobby that they are for most today.

[MaartenSFS]

Haha. I'm always glad when Shifu doesn't snap my arm or stab me in the eyes when he could have..