Internal power course (middleway)

[GrahamB]

I think I'm asking - once you have this skill, what do you do with it?

Sorry, this might sound obtuse. I suppose the answer has to be, 'I use it in martial arts and it makes me a better fighter'…?

[mrtoes]

I think I'm asking - once you have this skill, what do you do with it?

Sorry, this might sound obtuse. I suppose the answer has to be, 'I use it in martial arts and it makes me a better fighter'…?

Sure, but what you're really asking is how (and possibly why?) Interested in Middleway's take on this question.

[middleway]

Completely fair question Graham.

But for me thats sort of like saying, why do 'shrimps' or 'Bridges' solo in BJJ class? why continue to do them once you have done them 20 times and can do them pretty good? As with anything it is a constant refinement. If you just look at it as 'training' then there is no problem with that concept. If you look at is as some magic method or be all end all then people become suspicious and even i would call bullshit.

This training can be put in the same box as any training ... and that question can be asked of literally any movement method, body development method or skill etc. Once you know how to do one bicep curl why continue? The answer is really simple, To develop it more. Next step for development if thats what your asking is doing it with a partner. Pushing them and pulling them. This adds some resistance and helps create more development. If your asking what its developing physically then i will have to get back to you with the muscles, fascia sheets etc. I do have that in my notes but im not anatomist.

The reason I even use the words dan tien point and ming men point is because those areas are the origination for the open and close on the front and back. We dont need to look at them as mystical things, just the real areas where everything opens up from.

For me everything leads me back to 'Can i use this for fighting'. Its the metric i measure everything by and this is definately an excellent method for some aspects of fighting here are a few reasons.

1) The pull is inside the body frame ... you dont commit you mass back to pull
2) The push (punch slap ... anything) is inside the frame again you dont commit your mass forward. (this open close can be done on the move very easily once you have developed it)
3) If your closing the front opening the back you can change your direction from forward pressure to backwards without really moving much. This is useful in stand up for throwing.
4) it can be used to take strikes to the torso.

Tonight in fact i was showing it to some of the mma/bjj guys for throwing or off balancing.

My whole aim is that IP training be viewed more like any other type of training. Just as swimming is a very different skill to olympic weight lifting ... so IP training is different again ... but it is just another form of training. If you want to develop the attributes it creates then you cant just 'get it' then drop it. Just like if you want to be an olympic swimmer you cant just jump out of the pool when you learn all the basic strokes.

Hope that answers the question.

All the best
Chris

[GrahamB]

Thanks Chris, nice answer. Yes, it helps to see it as part of a progression to other things.

I always like to stop and think "hang on, what's the point of this?"

A boxer keeps hitting the heavy bag even though they obviously know how to punch.

I think hip escapes in bjj get your body into the right way of moving. If you don't do them (or something involving moving about on the ground) your body 'forgets' very quickly and you're not as sharp as you would be otherwise - Same as the boxer. Same with Tai chi I think. Doing the form makes me feel more coordinated, but like a sugar rush, it wears off, so you have to do it again, etc...

I suppose what I'm saying is there's a lot of intellectual content involved in 'internal' but it's actually an almost purely experiential thing, which is an odd contradiction!

[charles]

I suppose what I'm saying is there's a lot of intellectual content involved in 'internal' but it's actually an almost purely experiential thing, which is an odd contradiction!

Not so much. What it suggests is that many spend too much time intellectualizing, or do so for its own sake.

[Patrick]

Hey Graham, my simple personal opinion is, I like to move in different ways, because its damn fun and makes me healthy. From a semi-professional pov ( ) I am asking myself more what certain activities (even recreational fighting) can offer for our health and well being embeded in an evolutionary context.

IMA does offer with its focus on light to moderate intensity for a longer duration a good basis for health releated fitness for everybody. For example it is amazing how less most obese people can do, forget about all those classical exercises like push ups, running (!) or weight lifting. Just correct standing with playful movement is a strenous exercise for them. With most IMA exercises everyone can work at a personal comfortable level.

The torso method is a good way to improve core stability and mobility and in turn does improve balance and can act as a good way for fall prevention for the elder. One person here offers sport scientific fall prevention training where he uses a lot of tai chi/systema -esque partner and solo exercises. He is getting very good feedback from his clients and also from collegues from within the field. The torso method is also very good for preventing/treading chronic back pain as the movement patterns (opening/closing dan tien/ming men and the cross body connection) are not just IMA principles but evolutionary movement patterns. For example in a seminar for prevention of chronic back pain we covered the fascia leading from the food the oposing shoulder (cross body!). Then we were shown a simple method for improving core stability in daily living and what were we shown? A very simplified version of ZZ.

The slow moving intention based work also combines a few things. First the slow moving in space trains your type I muscles, which are necessary for postural control, which in turn improves your balance and everday relaxation. The mindfull movement improves brain neuroplasticity and forces you to engage every kinestetic receptors of your body, which improves fine motor skills (improvement of coordination skills->improved balance!). The slightly stretched but not stretched way of moving is a great way to relase fascial tension. The stance training within low to middle intensity range is a great way of training leg endurance->balance.
Balancing your body in space is really such an important way of improving your overal health.

The "fighting" partner work (yes also throwing, rolling etc.) also provides such a great way for training social interaction, balance work, coordination training, reliving stress etc.

But if this is all not important and all you care is fighting foremost, than this may seem not important yet.

Take Care

Patrick

[middleway]

thanks for the discussion guys.

This is a bit of a bug bare of mine tbh:

What it suggests is that many spend too much time intellectualizing, or do so for its own sake.

In my course we do 4 - 5 hour sessions. This session is split down to about an hour of theory (spread over 15 minute blocks) and 3 or 4 of physical training. But why do we need the theory?

I think if you walked into any high level sports academy in the world you would also see a lot of people intellectualizing technique, method, performance etc. Finding, through study, the best possible way to achieve the results and some of that will be telling the athletes how and why they need to do something a certain way. I coached national level volleyball and county level badminton aside from MA's so maybe that is why i have the technical outlook.

But honestly I believe this is my role as a coach, Its my job to research why things work the way they work and then use that information to give the best possible advice to people i coach. I actually pass on a fraction of what i am studying myself on the intellectual side as a lot of it would not help with coaching the physical method. But i need that knowledge to back up the coaching and explain to people what they feel me actually doing.

Talking frankly for a second ...
In my experience it is DEFINITELY not enough to just say "wave your hands like this and you will get it" or to throw your students around saying Chinese words in their face as they look on blankly, This is not good coaching. IMA is viewed differently to all other physical/mental endeavors when it shouldn't be in my opinion.

People look blankly and wave their hands about for YEARS and never really get what they are doing. I have 2 students of Chen and yang Tai chi who have trained with well known masters for 35 years and 30 years respectively. FAR longer than i have trained and yet they came to me and stayed with me because when we crossed hands they didn't have anything at all. How is this possible when i have trained a fraction of the time they have! With coaching in an easy to understand, non magical way that actually explained the method in clear terms they got hugely increased grasp of the training they had done for 30 years. The caveat is always that they still have to train it ... and train it hard.

I feel that the real knowledge of what your doing, exactly what your doing and why, is even more vital in IMA's than it is in other physical endeavors. This field is a minefield of frauds, mystical term, incorrect interpretations of Chinese and more importantly bad Coaching, often in the name of tradition. Certainly that is not a rule and there are really good teachers out there, many far better than me in both the methods and the coaching, but in my personal experience they are the exception and not the rule.

I was going to quote Charles' post where he talks about 'chi' here to illustrate my point but its been removed. Not to single you out Charles i respect your understanding as probably higher than mine. But it opens the door as to "whats Chi? how do you move it? " I have tried to answer these questions with a model that explains them but removes the need to use them.

All the best all.

Happy training.

[RobP2]

Nice post Chris

[mrtoes]

Great attitude and couldn't agree more.

As an aside it's interesting that Chris teaches only what has use for fighting - but as Patrick says the results feed right back in to your everyday life which is the focus for many of us, even if we like a bit of boxing/wrestling as well.

The opposite - of taking that which is "only for health" and trying to put it back into fighting - does not always hold true. As always functionality keeps it real.

Another reason I make a point of training with fighters even if fighting isn't the main thing that I'm interested in improving!

Cheers,

Matthew

[charles]

This field is a minefield of frauds, mystical term, incorrect interpretations of Chinese and more importantly bad Coaching, often in the name of tradition.

You're preaching to the choir on this one.

To put my comment in context, I was referring to those who are all theory and philosophy and spiritual and don't have any basic physical skills. There are many such practitioners.

I was going to quote Charles' post where he talks about 'chi'...

To be accurate, I didn't "talk about qi", I used the word once in the context of describing the physical actions with which its use is often associated.

In nearly 3 hours of video I have on-line, the word "qi" is used exactly 3 times: the terms "qigong", "peng", "lu" and "an" are each used once. At some point it is often helpful to students of traditional teachers to relate the physical practice to the traditional terms used, such as "chan si", "shun", "ni", "Kai", "he"....

[middleway]

To also be accurate, i did directly state i wasnt singling you out but was using the sentence as an example of how such terms can cause confusion if not qualified. Not a reflection on you mate, i have always enjoyed your videos.

all the best
Chris

[charles]

To also be accurate, i did directly state i wasnt singling you out but was using the sentence as an example of how such terms can cause confusion if not qualified.

You did, and I agree that such terms can, and often do, cause confusion.

i have always enjoyed your videos.

Thank you.

[middleway]

hi all ,

sorry to resurrect this thread but thought this video would be interesting.

This is the actions taking place when we are utilizing dantien point/mingmen point paired open and close and really goes a long way to explaining why 'ming men' as an origination point is such an important part of the mechanics.



hope its interesting.

[Patrick]

For those who can speak german

[Bhassler]

hi all ,

sorry to resurrect this thread but thought this video would be interesting.

This is the actions taking place when we are utilizing dantien point/mingmen point paired open and close and really goes a long way to explaining why 'ming men' as an origination point is such an important part of the mechanics.



hope its interesting.

It is interesting, but I don't understand how the specific focus of that model translates into practice. The combination of the thoracolumbar fascia along with the muscles along the spine and all the abdominal muscles can work as either flexors or extensors of the spine, depending on slight variations in timing and position of the hips/pelvis/spine, etc. It's not really an analysis of a live action so much as a model of a potential action, and as with all models we have to evaluate whether the degree of simplification is useful or not. I like it in the sense that it provides a way to visualize certain elements of the core that people can use for their own exploration, but I tend to disagree with the conclusion that it's all about maintaining a more or less neutral degree of lordosis in the face of an inevitable drive towards flexion. Can you elaborate on how you take something like that and bridge the gap to being able to use dantien/mingmen? Or am I reading too much into it and you just like it as a way to familiarize people with some pieces parts in their own bodies they may not have thought of?