Simplifying Tuishou

[MaartenSFS]

Although Shifu studied all of the major schools of Taijiquan, the only "patterns" we practise in Tuishou are a horizontal circle, one-handed or two (with one hand controlling the wrist and the other hand the elbow) and a figure eight-like "pattern" with both hands controlling a wrist. He says people get too caught up in form and should learn to flow and Tingjin. And those are only what we start with, but deviate from quickly. If one were to carefully observe, I suppose some variations upon set "patterns" may be seen, but these are things we just naturally figured out.

Interestingly, he has also combined Yongchunquan's (Wingchunkuen) Chishou with Tuishou. I feel like they compliment each other very well. His Chishou is somewhere between the original form and Tuishou. Also, somewhere in there is his Baguazhang's Roushou. All in all, really fun stuff and deeper than the simplification would have one believe.

[Michael Babin]

I suspect you'll never get any consensus on this topic. I've done Yang style the most since 1975 and with a variety of teachers, most of whom were serious about studying it as a martial art. One had no use for fixed-pattern push-hands and only taught free-style; a couple taught [or tried to cover] the full range of traditional fixed pattern stuff as well as free-style play and a couple said it was all important when they talked about it but they focussed on the fixed-pattern in their group classes.

Personally, I started with little formal structure in the push-hands free-play although we did practise single push-hands before moving on to slow free-play. Over the years I went on to learn a variety of structured exercises and for a decade I tried to teach both approaches in my group classes.

I say "tried" because it soon became rather evident that the students either liked and got good at the structured stuff but couldn't apply it to free-style and didn't enjoy that kind of training or were very good at free-style and rough and tumble but couldn't stomach or appreciate the structured patterns. Every now and then, you would get a student who could do both or at least appreciate the lessons to be learned from both but they were rarer.

I'm glad that I learned both over the years but with my lads when I train now, it's only free-style and training games that have structure but not the enforced structure of "a style".

[chenyaolong]

When I trained Taiji Tui Shou in Qingdao, my teacher had some fixed patterns, but mostly got us to do freestyle. We started with basic one handed horizontal circle, also adding a second hand pushing the elbow. But the majority of the time was hands liked at the wrists left hand to partners right hand, right hand to partners left hand.

We also had some excercise where we would just practice pushing into each other, one person was trying to keep root, the other person uprooting. My Chinese was quite basic at that time, so I dont remember the names, but my teacher would mostly teach by feeling. He was very hands on. He would feel if the direction and method of your power was correct, and then demonstrate it back on you.

[Dmitri]

had some fixed patterns, but mostly got us to do freestyle ... my teacher would mostly teach by feeling

That, right there.
Patterns are, at least in my very limited experience, for complete beginners and should constitute a brief and very tiny part of the curriculum, and be taken out/abandoned completely once a student gets past a certain level of understanding.

[wayne hansen]

Set exercises are to teach certain things
Parameters
Timing
Sensitivity
Even in set exercises there should be free play
In free play the essence of set exercises
Small San shou give me a break bad structure wing chun at its best

[windwalker]

When I trained Taiji Tui Shou in Qingdao, my teacher had some fixed patterns, but mostly got us to do freestyle. We started with basic one handed horizontal circle, also adding a second hand pushing the elbow. But the majority of the time was hands liked at the wrists left hand to partners right hand, right hand to partners left hand.

We also had some excercise where we would just practice pushing into each other, one person was trying to keep root, the other person uprooting. My Chinese was quite basic at that time, so I dont remember the names, but my teacher would mostly teach by feeling. He was very hands on. He would feel if the direction and method of your power was correct, and then demonstrate it back on you.

did your teacher mention anything about your low back?

[Bao]

Tui shou teach very basic principles, but it takes a long time to grasp the subtleness of tui shou patterns. It's not only a drill. I have enjoyed returning to the most basic drills through the years. It's very rewarding to return to things you haven't done for some years. You learn a lot about your progress.

Patterns are, at least in my very limited experience, for complete beginners and should constitute a brief and very tiny part of the curriculum, and be taken out/abandoned completely once a student gets past a certain level of understanding.

Sure, there are many ways people do the drills. Some people keep it to a very shallow, not very rewarding level. But what's in this quote is like saying that Xingyi Santishi and Piquan should be taken out of equation as soon as they are learned.

In Chinese calligraphy, every stroke is practiced thousands and thousands of times. The five elements of Xingyi is the brush strokes of chinese martial arts. Tui Shou drills are the brush strokes of two man practice. Simplicity can not be fully mastered. And the depth of simplicity can never be fully explored.

[wayne hansen]

Bake what I was getting at but said much better

[chenyaolong]

No he didn't mention my lower back... like I said, my Chinese was limited at that time, and his Qingdao accent was really strong. If you have any suggestions, I would welcome them.

[windwalker]

No he didn't mention my lower back... like I said, my Chinese was limited at that time, and his Qingdao accent was really strong. If you have any suggestions, I would welcome them.

ref: 2nd clip, but is also shown on the first

03.00

if you look at your lower back, the alignment is broken, this prevents whole body unified power from being issued.
what happens and you end up doing is just using your upper body and localized power.

compare your teachers actions with yours watching his back and how the whole body moves as one.
:038 it seems he is clearly indication not to use your arms when doing the push.

just watched it again, this is pretty much what he is trying to get across to you.

3:04 your mind is up, this seems to be what he is showing you.

nice work and a good learning experience. you teacher seem quite skilled.

your background is mantis? I work with others who have many yrs in n-mantis. the weight placement for the style is different
then that of taiji. a hard habit to brake.

my best advice would be to look at your teachers back in the clips, and remember what he felt like when he was working with you.
just some things I noted, just wondered if your teacher pointed them out to you, it kinda looks like he did.

on a different note: your mind is to far behind your actions in what your working on in the clips....I bet the teacher felt very strong yet not like he was really trying to do anything.



make a sphere using your body completing the gaps with your mind.
when you move the whole sphere has to move at the same time. notice your teachers movement.
at his first touch you body has already started to move, there is little to no compression in your teachers body
because he as a very good sense of his mind/body sphere.





best of luck, in your path...good training...

d

[chenyaolong]

Thanks Windwalker

This video was taken in 2008.... I started training Mantis in 2009.

There are crossovers, hence the name Taiji Mantis. But you are right, the body is held differently to Taiji. I do find things I learnt before help my Mantis, using the body not the arms to move, keeping the weight and intention sunk etc. Like you said, he felt very strong, although he wasnt doing much.

However, I would add that the Northern Mantis you see in the west, which comes through HK, is quite different to the Mantis praticed in Shandong province. There body method IMO in mainland China is less linear and uses more whole body power

[wayne hansen]

As I understand the name tai chi mantis does not come from a similarity to tai chi
It comes from a mantis with a mark like the tai chi symbol on its head

[chenyaolong]

Well I've never seen a mantis with a Taiji symbol on its head

But you are right it doesnt directly come from Taijiquan. Originally Mantis was named Meihua Mantis, but Song Zi De renamed his style Taiji Mantis during the end of the Qing Dynasty to reflect the theory of Yin and Yang present in his art.

[chenyaolong]

There are similarities in the way the body moves, and the use of the opponents force against them. But the main different is that Taiji Mantis is not done softly.

[neijia_boxer]

keep it simple. tui shou is a training tool.

form (tui shou) is function (application), function is form.

form comes from emptiness, emptiness is from form.