Sweating in combat training

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Sweating in combat training

Postby windwalker on Tue Oct 28, 2014 6:46 am

na, still open to growing and understanding

"It's pretty clear that the higher your VO2max, the more quickly your glands respond to the signal to start sweating."


is it?

this study is a little more updated

A 2011 study published in the American Journal of Physiology found that sweat rate depends on your physical work and your body’s surface area rather than on VO2 max. In other words, you’ll sweat the same amount running a seven-minute mile whether you’re in tip top shape or not, assuming you haven’t gained or lost any weight. This study concludes that sweat is an indicator of the physical work you’re doing, not how fit you are. (Read more about this study at Sweat Science.)

http://www.outsideonline.com/fitness/bo ... -More.html

which in my experience means that an untrained person in anything will tend to reach their max work load rate faster then someone who is trained.
having run cross country my self as a youngre man, if my memory severs me people who never run before broke a sweat before those who had.
in other words, running for example 2 miles out of 12 was nothing for those used to it, for those not they reached their max work load rate faster.
makes sense to me, and also what I've experienced,,,,could be wrong...
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Oct 28, 2014 7:32 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Sweating in combat training

Postby D_Glenn on Tue Oct 28, 2014 7:40 am

...you'll sweat the same amount running a 7 minute mile whether you're in tip top shape or not.

Isn't the epitome of being in shape: the ability to run a 7 minute mile? People who aren't in shape can't even run a mile, or they walk and run an eventual 14+ minute mile.

???

Running a mile with a seven-minute pace is an indication of superior cardiovascular fitness, which is not attained easily. Whether you are training for the full 26.2-mile marathon or looking to pass a physical fitness test, devoted training and technique can help you achieve the speed you want. There are no time frames given because your training progresses based on your current level of fitness and speed. The average adult will take 222 steps per minute during a seven-minute-mile run. Set your speed goal and take the steps required to reach it.


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Re: Sweating in combat training

Postby Patrick on Tue Oct 28, 2014 7:42 am

Of course it is important in what lactate range subjects are working. Trained and untrained people have different lss! And if you take the anthropological and evolutionary biology findings (see my first posts here), it is obvious that there can be no other way. Sweat is a heat dispanser, less heat->longer work possible.
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Re: Sweating in combat training

Postby windwalker on Tue Oct 28, 2014 7:50 am

I'm not entirely sure how to reconcile this with the results above, which show that sweat gland output and response time are correlated with VO2max. In the end, though, the basic conclusion that you sweat more when you're fitter does seem to hold true – but the cause is that you're able to push harder and generate more heat.]


from the same article/link saying basically what I noted.

well dont know what to say,,,its the amount of work load that one experiences , in any given activity those trained for it, will tend to reach their max at a later stage because they work less compared to others who do not, given the same amount of time and work....their effort is less until they reach their own thresholds.

what he writs does not seem to be logical in that those who can do more work, use less energy doing then those who do not.
hence the saying "he didnt even break a sweat" meaning in most cases it was to easy or well below the threshold where it would be challenging to the bodies ability to do it.
In IMA, the idea is that that things are built up over a long period of time, allowing all systems to grow together. Sweating more at something does not necessarily mean one is doing it better, or its more efficient.
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Oct 28, 2014 7:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sweating in combat training

Postby Patrick on Tue Oct 28, 2014 7:54 am

Physical work is not the same as lss. Both could do the same work and have different lss.
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Re: Sweating in combat training

Postby windwalker on Tue Oct 28, 2014 7:58 am

what ever dude, you posted a study showing one thing, I posted another one showing its not
the author using the same study states "I'm not entirely sure how to reconcile this"

the author whom you quoted seems to be more open then you in understanding this.
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Re: Sweating in combat training

Postby Patrick on Tue Oct 28, 2014 8:20 am

I actually agreed with you partially. But whatever dude.
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Re: Sweating in combat training

Postby amor on Tue Nov 11, 2014 6:07 am

wondering if anyone else gets this but sometimes I will sweat more in sitting zhang zhuang than when doing strike drills. Anyone else get this and what does it mean?
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Re: Sweating in combat training

Postby neijia_boxer on Tue Nov 11, 2014 8:07 am

The Lungs in TCM are responsible for control of the water passages. that is fluids to the kidneys, (kidneys back to lungs to moisten lungs), assisting in water down to bladder for urination, and most importantly to the "cou li" layer between skin and muscles to produce sweat.

side note: In TCM and in Western anatomy we touched on fascia for only about 30 secs. in an entire semester. Fascia to martial artist is over talked, fascia in TCM is only a membrane that qi exits and enters. The "Cou Li" layer however is talked very much, it has to do with defensive Qi "wei qi" that protects from EPF "external pathogenic factors like wind, heat, cold, damp, and dryness. it is a layer that can get stimulated by the needle in acupuncture. it is also related to the triple warmer meridian as well as lung since the three layers : 'skin-cou li- and muscle' are represented as 3 levels of the 3 burners. superficial, middle, and deep.
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Re: Sweating in combat training

Postby D_Glenn on Tue Nov 11, 2014 8:35 am

neijia_boxer wrote:The Lungs in TCM are responsible for control of the water passages. that is fluids to the kidneys, (kidneys back to lungs to moisten lungs), assisting in water down to bladder for urination, and most importantly to the "cou li" layer between skin and muscles to produce sweat.

side note: In TCM and in Western anatomy we touched on fascia for only about 30 secs. in an entire semester. Fascia to martial artist is over talked, fascia in TCM is only a membrane that qi exits and enters. The "Cou Li" layer however is talked very much, it has to do with defensive Qi "wei qi" that protects from EPF "external pathogenic factors like wind, heat, cold, damp, and dryness. it is a layer that can get stimulated by the needle in acupuncture. it is also related to the triple warmer meridian as well as lung since the three layers : 'skin-cou li- and muscle' are represented as 3 levels of the 3 burners. superficial, middle, and deep.

In CMA the myofascia is generally referred to as Jinmo (muscle membrane). This are more important to know and discuss in tuina then in Tcm.

Abdominal layers are sometimes distinguished as Huang.

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Re: Sweating in combat training

Postby neijia_boxer on Tue Nov 11, 2014 9:28 am

That is right dgleen.

The fascia in martial arts is stretched and packed, tapped, and hit for strength.

In tcm the main tissues and associate organ are: 5 element theory.

Skin- lungs.
Muscle- spleen.
Sinews: liver. (sinews as tendon, cartliage, ligament) not fascia.
Blood vessels- heart
Bones: kidney.

These are harmonized and will help all body parts including fascia membrane.
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Re: Sweating in combat training

Postby UniTaichi on Tue Nov 11, 2014 9:49 am

IME, when someone says no sweating in combat training and taiji, it does not mean that one don't sweat especially in their initial training. IME with my own practice on qigong, ZZ and taiji form, what they are saying is that ; when one reach a certain stage in their training, they would be less sweating or minimal sweating, if at all. The stage is when ones' body and mind harmonized with the external nature or the envoirnment.

This 'stage' can be found in writing by quite a few masters in their books etc. In eg. Martins' blog, there is at least 2 articles with some explanation on it.

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Re: Sweating in combat training

Postby yeniseri on Tue Nov 11, 2014 12:29 pm

Combat training (regardless of caliber) is less about sweating than about physical conditioning, enhancing/building muscle memory. 'stress reaction' training with associated steps. and the ability to react 'calmly' and follow through with varied levels of responses per an engagement. I would think that sweating is a moot point ;D !
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Re: Sweating in combat training

Postby D_Glenn on Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:12 am

neijia_boxer wrote:That is right dgleen.

The fascia in martial arts is stretched and packed, tapped, and hit for strength.

In tcm the main tissues and associate organ are: 5 element theory.

Skin- lungs.
Muscle- spleen.
Sinews: liver. (sinews as tendon, cartliage, ligament) not fascia.
Blood vessels- heart
Bones: kidney.

These are harmonized and will help all body parts including fascia membrane.

We look at the Jinmo as extensions of the tendons, but the tendons are thick and tough while the membranes are thin, yang and yin. Through a combination of still and moving practices we promote the health of both as they will both impede the fast movement of the muscles as the tendons are short and hold back the muscle while the unhealthy membranes are dry and uncoordinated. Promoting the 15 major channels and millions of sub-channels of the Luomai (primo vascular system/ bonghan channels) will really bring about positive changes in the Jinmo as they carry hylauronic acid in the channels (the ultimate Yang of the Yin fluids as it's clear in opacity). It's a balancing act though as these channels are delicate and easily damaged. Hence standing and slow movement practices but be sure to follow those with some fast movement exercises to promote the flow of blood to the muscles to balance it out. The fluid in the Luomai is not connected to the sweat but proper hydration is a key but really it's an aspect of pre-heaven Jing and post-heaven Jing that is extracted by the spleen in minuscule amounts from one's daily food intake.
Sweating and being properly hydrated (balanced electrolytes) is a good thing. How and to what extremes one practices is the factor. Always be concerned with your tendon and Jinmo health as they won't signal pain or overwork until it's too late.

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Re: Sweating in combat training

Postby neijia_boxer on Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:50 am

I agree with what you are saying.

here are some notes from class I just put together some good nuggets of information.
http://polariswushu.net/blog/2014/11/12 ... y-systems/

something to consider:
training that helps the zhang fu organs and be complete in your martial arts training:
heart- heart controls the vessels so we MUST do some CARDIO.
lungs- control Qi and distribute qi everywhere so we must practice QIGONG.
liver- controls sinews (tendons, ligaments, cartilage), so we must practice our Stretching and Taolu: Taijiquan. Baguazhang, Xingyiquan, etc..
spleen- controls muscles so we must eat healthy and some waigong/strength training.
kidney- controls bones, some standing/deep structural Neigong and regulate our sexuality.
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