Teaching forms

[Peter ILC]

Just a quick question for you guys who teach forms - do you also require your students to learn the name of each movement?
Lately I've been asking students to learn the name of each movement, which seems to help them remember individual movements better.

Just curious what approach others are taking with regard to teaching forms.

[MaartenSFS]

I haven't taught forms, but will be soon. Yes, I will be teaching the names, in Chinese of course. In fact I speak Chinese at least 50% of the class (when teaching foreigners).

[chenyaolong]

If you speak Chinese, then the names of the moves really help understand what you are doing. If you dont speak Chinese, it is easy for the meaning to get lost in translation. I just had this discussion with some guys on facebook... one guy was criticising the "fancy names" of kung fu moves, but it was really just down to his lack of understanding of the system or the cultural background

[yeniseri]

I do not teach forms, per se (just to teach form) but I tell my students that in order to develop a more accurate understanding of what it may or may not do, the Chinese name do possess a graeter insight into a background. It also has an era / cultural affiliation that may not easible be understood so it means the more serious practitioner will delve into why I said what I said. Periodically. I supply the background articles that also mentions tones or lack thereof, influence the meaning and understanding of certain posture names.

I do not recall offhand but there was a Tai Chi Magazine article about this and I photocopied said article. The author was about a Wu style inheritor on the cultural meaning of posture name!

[GrahamB]

They should get creative and make up their own names. "Put the pizza in the oven" for "Seal as if closing" was always a hit with my lot.

"White crane expects a pay rise"... "Revolting monkey"....

[Bao]

"Do you demand that your students learn the true, inner essens of a form?" is IMHO a much more interesting question.

[chud]

Just a quick question for you guys who teach forms - do you also require your students to learn the name of each movement?
Lately I've been asking students to learn the name of each movement, which seems to help them remember individual movements better.

Just curious what approach others are taking with regard to teaching forms.

I don't teach, but my opinion is that names are just used as a reference so that teacher and student can know what part of the form the other is talking about.

For example, if a teacher wanted to change all the chinese names in a form to western names that impart more meaning as to what the application is (Ex: "hook and grab"), I'd have no problem with that whatsoever; in fact it may be much more useful to do so.

[Bao]

For example, if a teacher wanted to change all the chinese names in a form to western names that impart more meaning as to what the application is (Ex: "hook and grab"), I'd have no problem with that whatsoever; in fact it may be much more useful to do so.

Sure, you can call a movement whatever you want. But if you limit a name to one single application, I don't think you do a student a favor for better understanding of tai chi form.

A tai chi form (single movement as "brush knee") is not limited to one single application or even to one kind of application. They are like chinese characters. A chinese character need to be put in a certain context to make sense. If not, they are only a symbol and the same character can be used as a noun, verb, adjective, verbial and more. Any tai chi form can be used for a defense, an attack, as entering strategy and bridging, a strike, qinna, anti-qinna, take down/throw, etc, etc. The actual application is decided through the context, i.e. how you are attacked and the situation thereof. In solo practice, IMHO, it's important to play a form just as being attacked and use it for real, but also practice a form so it can be useful in many different situations. Here, shenfa and structural integrity is more important than focusing on one single application.

[chud]

But if you limit a name to one single application, I don't think you do a student a favor for better understanding of tai chi form.

It is true that there are often several applications, but there is usually one primary application.

[chenyaolong]

A guy on said facebook discussion made the point that if you changed the names to suit your own cultural background, it would make interaction with people from other cultures difficult. If say a club in Argentina makes their own names up to fit local peoples understanding, then a guy from Russia comes to teach a seminar and he starts using Russian terminology to explain said moves, nobody will have any idea whats going on. It's better to just keep the original names as something that can be universally understood wherever you come from.

[wayne hansen]

The names are only helpfull if the teacher understands the meaning and how it applies
Speaking Chinese or being Chinese is of little use or there would be more Chinese who have achieved real skill

[Bao]

Speaking Chinese or being Chinese is of little use or there would be more Chinese who have achieved real skill

+1

Very true. But Chinese people also misinterpret names and make mistakes because they don't understand the practical context and/or understands it from a modern context. A simple example: many make the mistake to really "close" the hands together when they read the name of "kai he shou" = open close hands. Even if they see a picture with someone not closing their hands, they will still do it because the text says so. But "close" in the tai chi context means "connect", not close. It means to "close" or connect the structure, not literary close the hands together. So if you miss the mark of the names or put your own understanding into it without knowing the function, you are bound to make mistakes.

[Peter ILC]

French is generally seen as the language of ballet - so whether you study ballet in Russia, France, Germany, China or the US, the names of the basic moves are always in French (port de bras, pas de chat, pas de deux, etc.). That makes it easier for students from one country to train in other countries, even if they haven't mastered the language, because the basic ballet vocabulary is the same everywhere.

Even as a non-Chinese speaker, I would view Chinese as the basic language of taijiquan. Thus my priority would be on memorizing, e.g., the expression "Jin Gang Dao Dui", while noting to myself that it's often translated as "Buddha's Warrior Attendant Pounds Mortar". Knowing the names of the basic moves in Chinese would not only allow me to better following training in China, but also gives me a good starting point for more in-depth research on the subject, and makes it easier to communicate with the global taiji community (if such a thing exists).

The English taiji expressions ("The Blue Dragon Goes Out of Water"??) mean as little to me as the Chinese terms - they are both simply methods of organizing the information and communicating with others.

[windwalker]

French is generally seen as the language of ballet - so whether you study ballet in Russia, France, Germany, China or the US, the names of the basic moves are always in French (port de bras, pas de chat, pas de deux, etc.). That makes it easier for students from one country to train in other countries, even if they haven't mastered the language, because the basic ballet vocabulary is the same everywhere.

+1
was going to mention the same thing with wine "Sommelier"
the amount of knowledge they have to know is quite extensive

[wayne hansen]

The thing u seem to miss is when tai chi was taught in the south some if the names were mis understood by the southerners
I.e. Grasp sparrows tail
So even in Chinese there is confusion
When I was learning in the 60's Chinese would say "but it's a Chinese art"
In other words how can you understand it if you are not Chinese
The person I have met with the deepest understanding is not Chinese and I have looked in depth
I am lucky that our art comes from Malaysia a land where English was a first language at the time
One if our main teachers was an English professor so we had a great advantage .
I was going through the gold book of Wu gung yi with a Chinese teacher of mine
He pointed out that translation was hard
You had first to understand Classical Chinese
Then English both at a high degree
Then tai chi language and application
He understood all three
He then went on to say
But I have never met anyone who understands it like your teacher including his Chinese master
He was talking about Willie