Systems Comparison - Fu, Zhu, Huang

[Pennykid]

I would like some inside information on any of the taijiquan systems of:
- Fu Zhonhwen(Yang)
- Zhu Tian Cai(Chen)
- Huang Xingxian(CMC, White Crane)

I will most likely have to choose between these three systems a month from now and would love to hear how deep or not so deep the systems of each of these teachers are from people that trained in them for a long time or has a friend that has and can vouch for the quality. What I'm looking for is a lot of body conditioning exercises, real internal power, and actually useable fight training.
I don't want to start a war but one thing I'm curious about is the difference between Chen and Yang styles regarding power generation and neigong.
Since Yang came out of Chen and CMC came out of Yang, I'm curious if the changes made were an enhancement or a watering down?

I know the answers will only be opinion but I'm am very interested in everybody's opinions, particularly if they have real familiarity with these three systems.


Scott

[gasmaster]

IMO, look at the teacher, not the system.

[Pennykid]

That is of course my intention. The teachers I'll be choosing between are all lineage disciples of these three gentlemen, so I trust they have the whole curriculum of their style and branch. I think a better question for me to have asked is; does Fu's system have anything that Zhu's lacks? Does Huang's have something that Fu's lacks?

I'm looking for a systems comparison of these particular branches of these styles. If anybody has trained in two or perhaps all three systems I would love to hear your thoughts on the differences and similarities.

[charles]

Read what gasmaster wrote again.

There are lots of "lineage disciples" who don't have any skills. Being a "lineage disciple" isn't a guarantee of knowledge or skill. Lots of "lineage disciples" teach the curriculum of their particular style and branch: few have real knowledge or skills of it sufficient to teach the "Real Deal". Few teachers of Taijiquan teach "usable fight training". How much power/neigong training, and the quality of it, will depend a lot on the individual teacher.

I've spent some time with Zhu and have studied extensively with one of his students. Zhu's curriculum includes "neigong" training: he teaches a set of 18 exercises, in particular. It isn't any more "fight training" than many other styles of training.

In my opinion, if you want "serious" power generation and neigong, I'd look to Feng Zhiqiang's system, that is quite extensive, and to Hong Jungshen's system, which is also more "fight-related" than many of the other systems. Again, the quality of that material is entirely dependent upon the skills and knowledge of the individual teacher, not "the system".

[Pennykid]

Thank you for the useful information, Charles. It is appreciated.
I will hunt for teachers under those lines of Chen. If they are anywhere near Auckland, I will find them.

[yeniseri]

I would like some inside information on any of the taijiquan systems of:
- Fu Zhonhwen(Yang)
- Zhu Tian Cai(Chen)
- Huang Xingxian(CMC, White Crane)

I will most likely have to choose between these three systems a month from now and would love to hear how deep or not so deep the systems of each of these teachers are from people that trained in them for a long time or has a friend that has and can vouch for the quality. What I'm looking for is a lot of body conditioning exercises, real internal power, and actually useable fight training.
I don't want to start a war but one thing I'm curious about is the difference between Chen and Yang styles regarding power generation and neigong.
Since Yang came out of Chen and CMC came out of Yang, I'm curious if the changes made were an enhancement or a watering down.
Scott

The only way to decrease error per choice is to assess this yourself providing your research google-fu, etc has some level of construct validity.
a. CMC is Yang style so there is no objective choice here. Just go and study Yang style
b. Chen style? There are start differences so you need to figure out which difference will elevate your choice.
c. I would ask the same question that you posed. Based on your own observation, what is your own discernment level of Chen and Yang style? What has impressed you (or not) about both styles?
Only you and your hairdresser should know the result and that is your choice.

[Pennykid]

I have experience in Yang derivatives and I was not pleased at all. Meeks has forgotten most of the Yang he learned from his phenomenal teacher but what he showed me does not resemble any Yang I've seen on the web or personally experienced. A lot more movement and power coming from the deep abdomen and back. Chen style has obvious movement coming from the inner abdomen but, really, all I can go on is forms and push hands vids. I am very curious if the Fu and Huang lines have exercises outside of forms that really focus on that kind of movement and choose not to display it publicly.

[bruce]

IMO, look at the teacher, not the system.

Great advice.
The teachers ability to teach you a skill that you want to learn matters more than the lineage.
Meet the teachers and students if they have a skill set you want and you like them that is what matters.
Make your own style

If you are training for the purpose of self defense can what they offer allow you to defend yourself from the actual threats you may encounter? What threatens you? Can their teaching give you a solution?

[gasmaster]

Hey Penny,

A lot more movement and power coming from the deep abdomen and back.

I'd be looking for this in any ima teacher worth their salt. Since you've been studying under meeks, and you like his stuff, why not look for teachers that have the same quality of movement that he has. Also, why not get specific and ask about the actual teachers you're looking at. I'd bet someone here has experience with them and can give you a better picture of the teachers ability to see if they have what you're looking for. best of luck.

* edit- I'm sorry if i derailed your post, I'm sure people will chime in with stylistic differences which was more what you're looking for. I just saw your other thread where you're asking about teachers, that'll probably be the better place to get the answers your looking for.

[wayne hansen]

There are several lines of huangs linage in NZ they are as different as chalk and cheeze

[Pennykid]

Yeah, Meeksiness is exactly what I'm looking for but I've never seen anyone move the way Meeks and Yang Guotai move. I was asking about the different styles and teachers because I wanted to find out from anyone who had encountered them if they had supplementary exercises that had way more core movement than what is presented on the web.
Meeks, the late Yang Guotai, and Meeks' former taiji teacher all stressed this specific kind of movement. In YGT's Cheng bagua, there is almost no attention paid to forms. It's circle walking, partner drills, and a ton of conditioning exercises to build the engine for delivering power and making any technique effective.
I know i'm going to have to go teacher to teacher looking for this same quality. I was just hoping for a light to shine on this foggy sea.

[neijia_boxer]

FZW is headed by his son, they have good fajin from the classical patterns and have developed fajin forms. If you can find someone like that, i recommend. My teacher was a FZW disciple so i heavily influenced by this Yang version.
Taiji Push Hands - Fu shengyuan II: http://youtu.be/J8RNgsoyJv8

Zhu Tian Cai comes to USA often and he is def more open and friendly. He teaches generously form, fajin and push hands. Lots of silk reeling drills too. The guy seemed dangerous if he wanted. 42 Fajing Chen Taiji Master Zhu Tiancai: http://youtu.be/TKZQrieRsIcm

Huangs people are reputable if they were really close to Huang. I never touched hands, but i started with Cmc style so they are respected as a distant cousin. They have white crane and fajin forms too.Quickfist (Sanfeng Quaichuan) after Master Huang …: http://youtu.be/Bt-jtJOqthw

[Pennykid]

Marcus Zhao heads up the Yongnian Taijiquan Association in Auckland and he was a student of Fu Zhongwen and Fu Shengyuan. I'm bravely assuming he has some skill but I'm basing that solely on the quality of his teachers and the word of Rob Chauval. He was Inner_man back when this was EmptyFlower.
Hi all

"Im Rob Chauval based in Auckland New Zealand. In my previous life on EF I was previously known as "Robster" but I've decided to reinvent myself as Inner_man.

GREAT TO BE BACK

I've been super busy for the last 24 months traveling all over on business (Africa and Middle East mostly) and haven't had any time to keep in touch with EF or my training and now that I'm back I find EF has moved on and my previous logon don't work anymore.

As for my MA background;

- 3 yrs Shotokan karate when I was a teenager - invaluable as I now know the hard and truely linear.

I decided that circular was best and started looking for Bagua Zhang but couldnt find a teacher here in NZ during the 80s so I started Taiji in the belief that I would eventually move on to BGZ later.

- 17yrs Yang Taiji. Part one with Peter Boston (Earle Montaigue...) which was incredibly valuable but I could see that there were clear limits so I moved on to Part two - Marcus Zhao who had studied directly under Fu Zhongwen and I was proven correct that there was A WHOLE NEW TAIJI WORLD with real depth. I owe both Peter and Marcus a lot and thank them both from the bottom of my heart for sharing their passion of IMA with me.

- 12 yrs Shang Hsing-I Chuan and BGZ, with now Shifu Richard Hwang here in Auckland and absolutely loved his stuff (in parallel with Taiji under Marcus) Hsing-I is def me and absolutely what I've been looking for all these years. Spent a lot of time in Taiwan (90s) with Shifu and Wutan including Shibo GM Dai and Daimon Hwang who have both been absolutely amazing to train with."

[Pennykid]

I love Zhu Tian Cai's face. Such a serene smile as he shatters your ribs.

[Niall Keane]

There is a real and good question here by the OP.

I think you are asking what syllabus is taught?

What are the drills and training methods to build and mould a tai Chi fighter?

Best to go and visit each and ask them directly....

You can't hope for a total breakdown but a good teacher should be able to highlight the different pillars of their system and explain how they interrelate with each other and what they train.

I did precisely this last week for two new students with some Sanda experience, they took the first time freebe class and post class I explained how areas such as tuishou developed (applications and resistance are added) and what useful skills were being focused on, what the corresponding Sanshou methods were and the tactics being trained in both as well as the internal principles of recovering or countering with unchambered power in those methods. It gave a quick and brief indication of the potential within the system, a crude road map suitable for a beginner. During the class they had engaged in tai Chi ancillary methods such as rolls handstands and rolling thunder punching which they found very tough , and so did not need convincing as to the method dealing with all areas of a fighters training. Even at the start of class with Chi gung methods that have martial application, they were not left in the dark, and were made clear how such training helps condition responses and train the nervous system.

I don't leave people in the dark, or obsecure my own limitations with esoteric nonsense, but then again once people join my class they never go back to the other so called martial tai Chi they sometimes come from.

So my advice is try them out, the real deal exists in all styles I'm sure, and you will know immediately as long as you go in with the sceptical hat on, and leave faith based approaches to the cultists!

Edit:

For example those two aforementioned gentlemen left class having learned a tai Chi Sanshou drill, grasping birds tail against two hooks, then white crane flaps its wings hip throw, then the counter to such in embrace tiger return to mountain, then the counter to the counter in break arm style. They could do them fast and with resistance by the end, not perfect but effective none the less. They also drilled single sweep lotus leg against punches and kicks left and right inside and outside again by the end with speed and resistance and moving around in limited heavy sparring. As they were being taught simultaneously how to use seven star guard to entice and steer the opponent. Day 1 ... As some have said to me, more than 10 years in other schools!

Lots of fools on here come from those "other schools", and convince themselves for years, sometimes a lifetime, that they are on a true path despite having nothing to show from it when tested, they avoid testing as much as they can, some of us however don't , you will notice the difference fairly quickly.

Like I said you will know the real thing unquestionably !

You are at a dangerous place now, fall for tricks appealing to laziness and you could lose a decade and any hope of achievement, they will offer you a cable car to the summit, but the man who climbs tothe top is a different animal!