Wu 37 Form

[aiasthewall]

Does anyone practice this? Is it much worse in terms of developing body qualities than the long form, or is that teacher dependent?

I had my first intro to it today, and I was surprised at how difficult it was to do well. Super compact, low, and hell on the legs.

[MaartenSFS]

If you do three repetitions of a 37 form without stopping (link them together), wouldn't that be the same as doing the long form? Regardless, it doesn't matter how long a form is or how often you do it, but how many repetitions of the individual techniques you do and that you learn how to use them in sparring.

[yeniseri]

I do a Wu (37)? form but it isn't difficult depending what you did previously.
As long as you have the attributes you are being taught and you do the form assiduously then, over time you will develop some level of making the form past of your being.

If you are doing form just to do form with no neigong, some or limited utility martial or tuishou (as integration and curriculum development) then you may not get the fuller benefit (a relative term here as opposed to an absolute one).

[aiasthewall]

Thanks for the input. I was not implying that length was necessarily better, I was just wondering if something essential may have been removed when it was shortened. But Wang Peishing knew what he was doing, I am sure.

I have about 6 years xingyi, and it's different enough that I am finding it, if not very difficult, at least very interesting and engaging.

We will be doing push hands, I am not certain about neigong sets.

I would like some martial utility from it, if only indirectly would be fine. I am training Sambo/Judo at the moment as well, and would like to (eventually) use both for each other's benefit.

Thanks again.

[wayne hansen]

It is not about the length of the form but it's content and flavour.
I have yet to see anyone who does wangs forms who can tell me the benifits of the changes in this form to the traditional Wu form.
It is interesting to note that a number of cmc senior students put back a lot of the movements cheng took out
In our school these movements are called the lower hand 18 and have quite a martial aspect as aposed to the more passive aspect of the 37 step
Having said all that it is more about the teacher than the method
As you are training other arts you have to decide what you want from each art

[neijia_boxer]

I learned a 37 Wu form back in college in effort to understand "Yang small frame" a little better. the teacher taught this form:



The instructor had gone to Shanghai and learned from Wu Hing Hua the daughter of Wu Jian Chien.

It is not the same form as the Wu 37 from Wang Pai Sheng book. I did buy the book for reference, but it was not similar.

[Lu da]

I have practiced it for a number of years. While I wouldn't say I am particulArly skilled in taiji I would say that it is a good form. It is very scalable based on your skill level or fitness level. If you are interested in a deeper understanding Master Wang and his technique I would suggest getting his book:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/962238015 ... SY200_QL40

It's only 9 dollars and well worth every penny.

Wayne,
I cannot speak for the long Wu form but I find the 37 posture to be quite adequate. Master Wang like other masters encouraged practice of the individual movements as well as practicing the form. It's my understanding that many of his students were finding it difficult to dedicate an hour to just one form and so he removed some of the redundancy of the form so that it was shorter but still had the same essence as the the longer form.

I for one like it. With all the xingyi, santi, Bagua, and conditioning I don't have time to dedicate an hour to only one form. Every once in a while it might be nice to have the long form to really sink my teeth in to but I will settle for running through the shorter one several times.


Anyways aiasthewall, invest in that book, it's inexpensive and a very useful resource.

[wayne hansen]

3x37 same length as 108

[XiaoXiong]

I do this form. It seems pretty easy to do to me, but I've been training a long time before learning it. The book by WPS has a different version if grasp the birds tail because he wanted to show the push hands positions, but it is actually the same form, just different version for the book.
Jess

[Dajenarit]

Are the repetitions in the long form the counters to the primary attacks?

[wayne hansen]

There are many reasons for repitition
Take single whip for example
If we take it to be a prepatory forward stance you will see each time it is repeated you come out of it in a different manner
It is easier to see in the yang style
So it is telling you that when facing your opponent each time he responds in a new manner you respond likewise
The same can be said for the 5 reps of brush knee
When your palm fails to find its target you persist in getting it in by a different means

[Lu da]

I'm not an expert in martial arts but I don't think that there is any kind of literal connection between the movements of the 37 posture wu form and combat. I think it's a bit more abstract than that.

[XiaoXiong]

I disagree about what Wayne said about persisting. That's not a mindset that is compatible with taiji as I see it. We make others persue and persist, or we just enter. Also the Wu style is the taiji that is closest in application to bagua of the Yang branches and is very close to the form in application. The thing is that the movement may be small, even to the point of being indetectable to most. I sometimes work on only moving my intent to take the center before I issue. Like doing it only in your mind, but the energy moves, and not really the limbs. Mostly just the orientation of energy in the bodies changes.
Jess

[neijia_boxer]

The Wu form that Wang Peisheng teaches is considered the 'Northern' or 'Beijing' version that comes from Wang's teacher Yang Yuting. Wang was well versed in Baguazhang, Bajiquan, and Tong Bei, as well as Wu taijiquan. The Shanghai version is dominated by Wu Yinghua (Wu Jian chiens daughter) and Ma yueh Liang (son-in-law), who only studied Wu taijiquan. Hong Kong/Canton area is where most the family went after 1949. Each of those 3 areas of Mainland China, the Wu style is taught differently and thus each has a unique "flavor" so-to-speak.

[Wuyizidi]

Does anyone practice this? Is it much worse in terms of developing body qualities than the long form, or is that teacher dependent?

I had my first intro to it today, and I was surprised at how difficult it was to do well. Super compact, low, and hell on the legs.

The 37 Posture form is actually the first short Taiji form developed after 1949. Traditionally all martial art training were private one on one training. There were natural variances on how the teacher performed a particular movement when teaching each of his private students, based on what time it is in his career, how he's feeling at a time, even the space the teaching is taking place. When society changed and martial art training adopted the modern public education model, when often you have tens if not hundreds of students lined up in neat formations in front of you, it became necessary to standardize so everyone is doing the exact same thing. That's Yang Yuting's contribution to Taiji: before Yang Chengfu started teaching in the south, Yang Yuting's teacher Wang Maozhai had the largest public school of Taiji. So he wrote a book recording down the exact standards for every physical movement in the Taiji Quan form.

The creation of 37 Posture form is another step in the teaching methodology. By the early 1950's most of the Taiji Quan classics has become public, and the principles on purpose of each type of practice has become very clear. In terms of form practice, it's commonly understood that it's not so much about learning the physical movements (postures, techniques) for the purpose of using them exactly in fighting, but using them as practice examples to acquire the 9 alignments and 5 requirements, which in turn, when combined with development of sensitivity in both forms and push hand practices, allows you to acquire true Taiji Quan skill.

Of course the 9 alignments and 5 requirements are just the foundation abilities in forms training, beyond that there's the 6 integration, first the 3 external, then the 3 internal, etc. It's a lot to work on. In reality one cannot really focus on more than 2 or 3 of these things at the same time. We basically have to focus on 1 or 2 at a time, repeat them enough so we can do it without thinking, then move on to next. So Taiji quan practice is very mentally and physically exhausting. As in the case of Zhangzhuan, it's not considered productive to push yourself pass the point of losing mental focus. After all, you don't want to practice a mistake.

Take the example of one of the 5 requirements: relaxed, slow, smooth, and even, centered, upright (not leaning in any direction), settled, and comfortable. Doing the form this way is designed to make you feel what true relaxation (using minimal effort to do something) is like. When every movement is performed at EXACT same speed, there is no acceleration or deceleration. As we know from Newton's first law: change in speed requires additional force. By not doing that, we will gradually feel what no additional force (besides for maintaining the momentum, overcome friction) should feel like. A common analogy for evenness in form then is that you should be like those high end clocks, where the second hand sweeps smoothly http://paulrhayes.com/experiments/clock/#clock rather than jump from one second to next, pause, jump again http://css-tricks.com/examples/CSS3Clock/. It would be like someone wound your body up, and from the moment you start to moment you end, it's not 37, 83, or 108 movements, but one long continuous movement, performed at same tempo. This is why the original name of Taiji Quan is Chang Quan - Long Fist.

Like Zhan zhuang you don't get much benefit from form practice if you do just a minute or two (especially when you're learning). You need to do it long enough in each set until you become aware of the feeling. On the other hand, looking at the idea standard, we can see how hard it is to maintain that both physically and mentally. So Master Wang Peisheng, with approval of Master Yang Yuting, developed the short 37 form. He basically took out all the repetitions from the long form. The benefit of that is when the form is shorter, during each repetition you have greater mental and physical energy available (more recuperation between sets), it could be higher quality practice. The long form is of course harder, since you need to maintain the 9 alignments, 5 requirements, 6 integration, application intent, internal feeling, etc over longer period of time. It's like a marathon versus half marathon or 10k. The long form usually takes 50 minutes to complete, the 37 about 20-25 minutes.

Master Wang wrote the book and submitted to the sports authority. They held it for a long time before finally publishing it, but not before they came out with their own short form for Yang Style. So like anything else in training, each method has its emphasis, none is be all and end all, each has its strength and weaknesses. For example I myself like the fact the government form has some of the classic movements done in both directions (leading hands)...