Zhang Jun-feng's Badass Combative Lineage: Query

[Andy_S]

Some interesting info has come up recently on various threads, particularly from Marcus and Ken.

Notably:
- Xu Hongji left Hong Yixiang's school as he was not in full agreement with the material taught there; and
- That Hong himself had previously been expelled from Zhang Junfeng's school.

Moreover, (I believe) that both Luo De-xiu and Su Dong-chen have deviated somewhat from the material that they learned from Hong.

Even so - and as Marcus pointed out - the guys who stem from Zhang's lineage are virtually a "Who's Who" of IMA fighters and trainers of fighters in recent years. Names like:
Hong Yixiang
His brother (whose name escapes me)
Xu Hongji
Luo De-xiu
Su Dong-chen
Vince Black
Mike Paterson
Et al.

So here are the questions.

(1) Regardless of all the various off-shoots and add-ons of the lineage: What were the core, central elements of Zhang's original material that are common to these various schools? What was the magic bullet?

(2) To put the same question another way: What was it about Zhang's material or teaching methods that made them so effective, when most other CIMA lineages are clueless about rucking?

(3) Or (to answer my own question): Was it just that Zhang's various students took a very active role in the various kuoshuo/leitai events held in Taiwan from the 50s-80s. This habit would have (1) drawn and/or (2) created a more badass student cadre than is the case with less combative schools...

(4) In the 21st century world of RSBD, MMA, sanda, etc: Do the various Zhang lineages still command respect within Taiwan's MA community?

(5) And finally: Are there any other CIMA lineages out there producing hardcore fighters? The only one I can think of that springs to mind is Cheng Tin-hung's/Dan Docherty's Practical Taiji.

A request: Could posters (Wandering Dragon and Graham Barlow in particular: You have been warned, gentlemen!) kindly restrict this discussion to the above rather than trying yet again to define "what is a fighter." The chaps mentioned above fought in competition, produced students who fought in competition and are, I think it is fair to say, able to handle most nonsense on "da streetz." AFAI am concerned, their reputations as they stand are enough for the purposes of this thread.

[kenneth fish]

I can only speak for how Master and Mrs. Zhang taught, as I do not have first hand knowledge of how the students and students of students taught. Lots of foundation work, reaction drills, and limited sparring using techniques from the systems. The first year there were no applications or fighting. Just foundation work and drills. By the third year (assuming one showed up 5 or 6 days a week and put in 2 or 3 hours each day) one was pretty well programmed by both the solo and partner drills and could react with the movements one had learned. sparring (no gloves, just a towel wrapped around your fists) was progressive but limited to using what you had learned. FWIW there were very good fighters and highly skilled technicians whose names are not familiar to anyone outside of the school. Also, at least 2 of Master Zhang's daughters participated in the full contact matches and did very well. Mrs. Zhang was very good, and once, to her great regret, killed an attacker.

As far as other CMA lineages - Andy, you really should go to Taiwan and see for yourself. There is still a lot of good CMA being practiced there, not for competition. You can ask Hermann about the White Crane in Taiwan. Still, most of the really solid material is not for non-Chinese.

[wayne hansen]

Just one point hsu didn't leave hung over technical matters
It was more about cashing in on the American bases as a cash cow.
From when I was there in 75 and my student Geoff Ewin was there a couple of years later
The tien kan and basic 8 step forms had become much more hsing I like
I think this was due to hsu,s own advancement

[Andy_S]

Ken:

Cheers, that pretty well answers the question: Quality basics (solo) then quality basics (applied) in drills and sparring. Did Zhang's teaching extend beyond pure MA to what we would now call reality based self defense - elements such as personal awareness, tactics using the environment, escape and evasion, first aid, legal issues, etc, etc?

Out of curiosity, how did Mrs Zhang kill her attacker? (Mugger? Rapist? Or what?) If one is unarmed, that usually takes some doing unless it is an accidental byproduct - eg chap gets chinned and cracks his skull when he visits the concrete.

I have not been to Taiwan since 1991 or 2. These days - what with work and family - the chances of flying over the horizon for martial adventures are more limited than they were in my feckless youth.

Sigh.

Wayne:

My sense of all the Zhu material is that it is very much HsingI first, Bagua second. HsingI seems to me to be a much more direct and applicable method than Bagua, which is (arguably) more "sophisticated." I understand that Luo first came up as a HsingI fighter on the leitai before specializing in the Bagua after his fighting career was over. And according to the 'Way of the Warrior' TV series, Bagua was kept by Hong for his more advanced students, while his Taiji was only taught at the highest levels - or, perhaps, to older chaps who were not into rucking...?

[kenneth fish]

Master Zhang's entire approach was towards practical use (as opposed to sport or competition - even though his students did well in the latter, there was very little focus in that direction). Separate self-defense would have been redundant. We did learn defenses (applications of already learned techniques) against knives and other weapons.

Mrs. Zhang and a friend were attacked by a mugger. She used a technique from Chicken (deflecting the oncoming arm and snapping the attacker's head back). It is arguable whether the broken neck or fractured skull (from hitting the concrete) did him in.

[Andy_S]

Ken:

Interesting to hear that tale. But if she broke his neck...well, the fractured skull would have been icing on the cake.

Is Mrs Zhang still in the land of the living? I recall reading that CS Tang from the Gao lineage in HK visited her some years ago and was kindly received. If not, is there any remnant of Zhang's school still in existence....their children, for eg?

[kenneth fish]

A broken neck is not necessarily fatal - but the fall on the back of the skull probably was.

Mrs. Zhang passed away a few years ago. The signboard for the school remained up until last year. It was gone when I visited in March of this year. Her children have their own lives, none of them practice martial arts that I know of.

I was present for C.S. Tang's visit in the 70's, when Master Zhang was still alive. I did not know that he had visited Mrs. Zhang later (probably in the 1980's or 90's) - I can ask him about the trip. Several of my classmates are still around - one was teaching in Brazil a while back.

[Andy_S]

Ken:

All these (now) semi-legendary people. All this knowledge. All these anecdotes....

How's the book coming??

[kenneth fish]

I get a bit done every day (I have 3 non-fiction books I am slowly writing. One is a text book for which I have a contract, so that gets priority). Truman Capote was mocked by another author who looked askance when Capote said that some days he only gets 8 or 9 words written, to which he replied "yes, but they're the right words".

[Andy_S]

Ken:

Don't use Capote as an example, FFS: If he only managed 10 words a day, how did he ever finish a book? My last masterpiece was 170K words...

I would hope that recalling and writing down memories and experiences would be play rather than work. Hell you might even make some money out of it: Smith's Masters and Methods is still selling to this day. Deadlines and contracts are made to be broken, as Tom will no doubt agree.

Speaking of Tom: His knowledge of tome writing is clearly weak. Follow the fine example of Chaucer and Shakespeare (but not that womanly prude Hemingway) and cuss all ye like.

[kenneth fish]

Tom: So nice to be understood.

Andy: I look upon textbooks as a legacy. FWIW my current projects are:
1. Myofascial Pain Syndromes of the Head, Neck, and Jaw - a guide to manual and rehabilitative therapies
2. Lecture materials for the same
3. Physical Training for Manual Therapists (a guide to strength, body mechanics, and palpation skills for Osteopaths, PT's, and other manual therapists)
4. Lecture materials for #3
5. Remarkable Men: Masters of Chinese Martial Arts, a memoir (tentative title. I was at one time thinking of calling it Youth In Asia...)

My goal is to finish the first one within the next year - textbooks, once published and in common use, become the academic equivalent of a sinecure. I have also been approached by a continuing education company that specializes in continuing education for physicians and physical therapists - I hope to reduce my clinic time and teach part time.

Martial arts books make diddly over squat these days - so the last is a labor of interest for myself. I am also working on written and video materials to train my students, and will eventually distribute them commercially.

Funny, I didn't expect to have so much on my plate in my dotage.

[edededed]

Those projects sound awesome! I'd love to buy all of them - but how hard would it be for non-professional-medical-persons to comprehend? I'd love to learn manual therapy of some kind...

[Andy_S]

"I'd love to learn manual therapy of some kind..."

Reminds me of a chum of mine who went, in all innocence, to a central Seoul massage parlour, not realizing it was a haunt of - well. The masseur did his duty, then enquired, sotto voce, "Now, would sir care for penis masturbation...?"

[vietle87]

Dr. Fish

I'm graduating from osteopathic medical school in a couple of months and I'll admit I've given lip service to manipulation in favor of more conventional medicine. I would definitely like to improve my skills by reading your book in the future.

[kenneth fish]

Manual medicine and viewing the body as a functional unit is what sets osteopathy apart from allopathy. I would strongly suggest graduate rotations in manual and rehabilitative medicine at a place like PCOM or Michigan State - do it now while you can.