Zhang Jun-feng's Badass Combative Lineage: Query

[D_Glenn]

I heard that osteopaths who still do manual therapy are a dying breed?

My acupuncturist saw one and just 15 minutes of work on face and neck was a huge noticeable difference in her whole being that I noticed right away without knowing the reason why. She said this doctor has like a 3 month waiting list so I was wondering if you know some good D.O.s in the Denver area who do the hands-on work?


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[wayne hansen]

Still alive and well here in oz
Not allowed to prescribe medicine here

[kenneth fish]

D.O.'s in the U.K., Australia, and N.Z. do not receive the same depth and breadth of education as American D.O.'s, and IMO the skill levels that I have seen from the Commonwealth schools is more basic. Not saying this to tout the U.S., its just the way I see it. Bear in mind that an American D.O. has 6 years of post university training and is a fully qualified physician, and that the residency for manual medicine is 2-3 years.

You should be able to find a D.O. in Denver - you might try contacting the D.O. school in Kirksville or Michigan State and ask if they have a list of their graduates who practice in your area.

[vietle87]

I go to Lake Erie College of Osteopathic Medicine and currently on interviews as a 4th year. Maybe I'll wait until the match to figure all that out, but thank you, Dr. Fish!

[vietle87]

And I would like to add, it's not 6 years. D.O. school is 4 years just like M.D. school

[kenneth fish]

I am including the time in training for residency for the manual medicine specialty track (2 years at PCOM, 2-3 at Michigan State and Kirksville last I checked. For Physiatry I believe it is 4 years post medical school). That is comparable to other medical specialties. I also assume that the year long residency in internal medicine following 4 years of Osteopathic/Medical school is still standard. Were I looking to do the OMT track I would probably look at PCOM (Kuchera is still there I believe) , Michigan State, or Kirksville.

[vietle87]

Sorry, I thought you meant just medical school. For the OMT specialty, I have no idea how long that is. Most students don't choose it, so far as I know.

[kenneth fish]

It depends on the school. Erie does not place a lot of emphasis on OMT , whereas PCOM , Michigan State (where the late Phillip Greenman taught), Kirksville, and Kansas City are very strong in that regard. At the opposite end of the spectrum is NYCOM, which practically ignores OMT. I was just having this discussion with a local D.O. phsyiatrist - he frequently refers to me for manipulation, as he has built his (well deserved) reputation on medical pain management. We both feel that OMT was badly neglected for far too long, but it seems to be having a resurgence - even M.D. schools are now looking to D.O.'s for instruction - University of Maryland is one example. The new school in Virginia (at Virginia Tech) is also building a good OMT program, and the projected school at U.V. has plans for OMT concentration as well.

[TaoBoxer]

Osteopathy in the United States is sadly used by 85+% of its students as a shortcut to a career as an allopathic physician. DO schools are generally alot more liberal about midlife career changes (Many MD programs have an unwritten rule about candidates in their 30's) and accept lower MCAT scores. This to me is a travesty. The skills taught to DO's are invaluable and it's a shame to waste them.

The root cause of this problem is money. Osteopathic Manipulative Therapy (OMT) simply does not reimburse that well. Some of the procedures are time intensive and require more time be spent with the patient and thus limits the patients per day that can be seen in the office. The ICD-9 codes for medical billing only allow OMT as an office visit procedure (code modifier -25) and only one procedure is allowed to be performed in the same visit. Since the OMT procedure codes are broken down by body region that means the DO cannot get reimbursed for working on more than one body region per visit.

The trend in New England right now is that many DO's are opening private clinics and not accepting insurance. They take cash per visit and it is usually expensive. In my experience however it is worth every cent. I have been treated for several chronic conditions and got amazing results.

I would recommend anyone with chronic conditions not well managed by a "regular" doctor seek out an Osteopath. I wish I had done it decades earlier.

[TaoBoxer]

Dr. Fish-

To your point regarding Allopathic physicians seeking Osteopathic training-

The DO who treated me has taught several continuing medical education (CME) programs at Harvard in OMT. While I am in favor of more people having these skills I also find it irritating that the MD establishment always seems to want to have it both ways. They want to deride "alternative" therapies and at the same time be able to provide and bill for them. This is also seen in the "medical acupuncture" movement (also coincidentally taught at Harvard Medical School) where licensed physicians can become "acupuncturists" with 200 hours of training.

[WongYing]

Andy_s.... I have heard penis masterbation refered to a soft tisse work in some theraputic circles

[Doc Stier]

What a hoot! LOL

The so-called 'acupuncturist' with only 200 hours of training or less is generally incapable of anything more than a one-size-fits-all 'cookbook recipe' application of acupuncture. It's genuine artificial acupuncture compared to the treatment services offered by those who have invested 3-4 years of their time, encompassing several thousand hours of classroom study, plus significant student clinic hours, to acquire a Master of Science Degree in Oriental Medicine at an accredited college prior to passing a licensure exam. Other primary healthcare professionals would be well advised to stick with what they really know and leave the acupuncture to those who are licensed in the practice of legitimate Oriental Medicine. Sheesh!

[Doc Stier]

Getting back to the OP, I spent 9 days with Su Dong Chen back in the early 1980's. He taught two consecutive weekend seminars at my school in Mpls, MN, and we trained together for many hours each day in between.

Although the seminars were devoted to both xingyiquan and baguazhang respectively, and his skill in each art was impressive, it was clear that he personally preferred the xingyiquan as a fighting style and had focused on training that style longer than he had on his baguazhang or taijiquan. I very much enjoyed the time spent with him and the exchange of ideas and training methods. Su Dong-Chen is definitely the real deal!

[vietle87]

This can be a whole thread on its own, but there is lack of understanding on both sides of the spectrum. I personally am confused and frustrated when patients bring me a list of herbs in the ER that they state can "treat" their diabetes, HTN, glaucoma...

[neijia_boxer]

I was never to clear, but based on posts, public information on wiki, forums, and people I have studied with at one time or another.....at least what I understand looks something like this for westerners who teach Gao Bagua and/or Hsing-i. I do not know about the Chinese representatives, i'm sure the Chinese/Taiwanese disciples have much closer connections.