Miaodao against other types of sword

[Finny]

Brother W - the question about sparring was directed towards sinkpoint, in response to his statement that Katori Shintoryu training is 'static and they don't spar'

I was just trying to highlight the obvious - you can't 'spar' with swords. That's why sports like kendo and fencing developed; they are what happens when you try to fight with deadly weapons without dying. At some point you have to remove the element of danger. Which alters the entire dynamic. That's why the older schools which were focused on preparing for battlefield combat didn't train that way. Often people interpret that as some 'the older battlefield arts were teh real' type of statement but really it's just a different method, with a different goal. I don't think anyone who has seen or participated in high level kendo training would dismiss it.

Honestly though I was just trying to understand a bit better the point Sinkpoint is trying to make - I don't know what he means by 'static' training, or what type of sparring he envisages.

[wiesiek]

hmm,
"static"....
is only, if you are doing ZZ with the sword
sparring -
can be done with wooden weapon at first,
later you can advance to not so sharp metal thing and some protective gear,
real jan for cutting test only
and staged forms.
Playing in deadly games without the chance to be really dead sounds like good way of learning the art .

i know, that sword is little old fashioned for contemporary battlefield,
but
learning to use it differently doesn`t make any sense for me.

[Finny]

sparring -
can be done with wooden on at first,
later you can advance to not so sharp metal thing and some protective gear,
real jan for cutting test only
and staged forms.
Playing in deadly games without the chance to be really dead sounds like good way of learning the art .

i know, that sword is little old fashioned for contemporary battlefield,
but
learning to use it differently doesn`t make any sense for me.

You seem to miss my point, but that's ok, we can agree to disagree

I don't think sparring can be done with wooden weapons, at least not the weapons I train with, being used in the way I've been taught to use them. It would just be too damaging.

As you said yourself - learning to use it differently doesn't make any sense, and in order to 'spar' you need to use it differently.

[wiesiek]

regardless of missing point i`m still a live !
i love internet
so,
your opinion is, that even with protective gear on, usage not sharp weapon as sharp one in real, is restricted due to safety reason?

[Ba-men]

Brother W - the question about sparring was directed towards sinkpoint, in response to his statement that Katori Shintoryu training is 'static and they don't spar'

I was just trying to highlight the obvious - you can't 'spar' with swords.

Honestly though I was just trying to understand a bit better the point Sinkpoint is trying to make - I don't know what he means by 'static' training, or what type of sparring he envisages.

Sparing? Say's who?
Let's all a step back for a second. A) I have heavy weapon fenced for about ... Um... I'm 48 (started when I was 18) so it's been thirty years of continuous training. Western Heavy fencing (with armor & full contact w/either wood wasters or rattan or rebated steel) in just about any (and I mean any) rules configuration from SCA calibration where a touch is at at the force required to knock a bowling ball off a post three feet to ACL where your done if your buffeted or thrown to the ground. Even Pa de Arms submission bouts etc... you name it! I have also trained Kendo with one of the few Hachi dan outside of Japan (Tagowa Sensei) let's us note! "I have contentiously refined my Chinese swordsmanship in these environments"

qualification over... now on to

Training weapons is akin (or should be) akin to sparing: sooner or later your gonna have to "go at it" free style. Problems arise if: If one trains just grappling with weapons (ignoring the actual intent and capabilities of the said actual weapon.. often people forget the reality that many of these weapons have an "un refutable" one touch, one kill aspect to them. They, to there ignorance, ignore the actual fencing skills intended for the weapon. Others are equally at fault... They don't grapple, they ignore Non sporting engagements that are sure to happened. They assume the opponent will conduct themselves with chivalrous sportsmanship and just fence... Wrong! One needs to learn both.

Overall... What many don't understand is that learning a weapon is a life long discipline that take up just as much time as learning a hand to hand art like Long Fist etc... It's very hard to master both because of the time needed.

All that said you can train and spar with weapons! Who here thinks that swordsman's (of any period) when they trained actually went at it with live weapons? Samurai trained with wooden bokken. Medieval knights trained with wooden wasters (in fact they had many a tournament with wooded swords) Chinese trained with wood weapons and were no different that any other culture also.

From my experience: kendo or kenjustu ... both in general are not sword fighting nor are they training for sword fighting! Both have been "japanesed" to death! Both have become exercises is perfection and ignore reality. That all said, (on the internet) I have seen some kenjustu that armor up and go at it (but that isn't the norm)

[Finny]

Yeah we seem to be talking past each other so I'll leave you to it - enjoy

[wiesiek]

http://youtu.be/0AeG2hur_b4

[Ba-men]

http://youtu.be/0AeG2hur_b4

Actually those guys sucked! Just hacking!

Mind you there are different rules for the various organizations.

American Combat league/Battle of Nations (which I've done).... stuff like this


and SCA stuff like this...


and ....mass melee stuff




this stuff is good also


even this is ok too...

what isn't? anything Olympic fencing in nature or japanese Kendo'ish

[wiesiek]

easy Ba ,please
it was my "on fly"1st example for Finny when i googled " knight sword fight" ,
just to illustrate, that u can spar with the steel tools.

You posted ,/from the bottom one/:
- this is "forms application training" in my book
- 2nd and 4 th, are tournament fights with written rules
- 3rd and 5th /1st posted/ - groups fights looks somehow funny for me - I have no idea how they count the points, and why the Russian win for example ,
however "free sparring" should get flavour of both / in duel mode/

but, I`m novice in sword word, so i`m open for trainings advices.

[Finny]

Actually those guys sucked! Just hacking!

That's exactly how I would describe the clips you posted - they seem to perfectly illustrate my point. At no point did I see anything that WASN'T 'Japanese kendo-ish' - they're using armour and targeting protected areas. Nothing wrong with that, it's just not how you would effectively fight in armour.

[Finny]

Ah - yeah that last clip obviously is not sparring, and seems to demonstrate my point again.

[Ba-men]

Finny No offense dude but seriously...

IMO What you just did was point to full on Heavy weapon grappling and slag it as nothing. Aka American combat league/Battle of the Nations were countries like Russia and Ukraine have professional teams supported by their governments! A league with punches, kicks, reaps, trips and throws and all done in armor and while using blunted rebated steel weapons to boot!!! National teams... " YEA I said National teams !" (as in USA, GREAT BRITAIN, FRANCE, RUSSIA etc... who compete in singles and teams..) Battle of Nations is like the world cup when it comes to heavy weapons melee fighting! (did I tell you I fight at that level? I think I did.... Maybe I forgot to mention just about everyone who does has practiced to a high degree in another MA... what could you possibly know that we don't? )

what you just did...

That's like pointing to high level Jujitsu/MMA and saying "that doesn't represent real street fighting." This isn't some stage where you fantasize about "I'd cut my opponent's head off here if my opponent's did XYZ" or some school where you compete free style with a foam sword against three including your Sifu! This isn't a place where you dance around with a wooden bokken playing at what 'if's" like as in kenjutsu. This is a place where you get to smash a guy in the face with your mailed gauntlet and then attempt to open him up like a soup can with your pole arm!

You also just pointed to some high level SCA fencing that has a very extreme touch (In most places in the US a blow is only counted if it has the force to knock a bowling ball off a post three feet or more) How about going to your nearest SCA fighter practice and show them what ya got! Take note of all the dented helmets first!!!!! Then take note that they are using rattan ....What? Wood dents steel? How? When your throwing blows at a 100% with real technique, that's how! You snarked on a clip taken at Pennsic with all belted combatants... most are (in the vid) the best in their area of the US... That's like pointing to a Professional Boxing match and saying "that doesn't represent pugilism" Umm.. as far as Pure Heavy Fencing goes its about as good as it gets. (i.e. without full on grappling... yet, the SCA does have limited grappling and body slams,and knockdowns and even Pas de Arms aka submission bouts where you only submit when you have gassed or got your brain pan rung to many times etc )

Before anyone else chimes in on the SCA .. first show up, then suit up & take a few names...Then come back and talk your shit. It's always the same with the sparkly glow chuck crowed. Talk... nothing but... Talk. Or excuses about at the one time they did go to a practice they got their ass handed to them. (it's also usually at some back jerk water location where no one with real skill practiced. So they got OWNED by a bunch of SCA no names and didn't even know it ) It's always "I couldn't do xyz" or "they wouldn't let do this or that..." Bla bla bla.. It's not real & I only do real!



Finny I'll say this to you and anyone else... One would think if people are such a bad ass with a weapon they should be able to hold their own with a little rattan... right?
By the way... Finny, just what do you do that makes you such an expert? What experience are you basing your opinions on? [/b] I'm always open to people showing me new stuff. If your so confident you got the goods... I'd love to see it. What is it? Dog Brother stuff? Cool! Want to do the same but with armor and instead of drum sticks you get to use steel and get even more ramped up? Come hang out!

It's been my experience that To many people think they know the blade because they watched Conan the Barbarian or watched Jet lee jump around with a piece of tinfoil. Some "daisies" after besting the poor tree in the backyard with the latest piece of junk they bought off of E-bay... convince themselves they KNOW! And only They Know!


Most would-be experts can't touch one of us or hang more than a couple of min before they are totally gassed. People think they got what it takes without ever doing it... Some think they can pull some grappling on us. It's like thinking one can out clinch a boxer, while never boxing? We in the Heavy weapons call in "Corps et Corps" or "close in fighting" Most of us are well versed in it and at a serious competitive level to boot!. (Finny did I mention we do all this in armor? Mine weighs about 55 pounds... There is a lot that goes into all this it. Want to talk core strength? How about the cardio that it takes?

I'm just trying to grasp what or where your knowledge/premises i.e. your authority on this subject" comes from.

Me and my kind are all about show and tell, so if you think you got the goods, we would LOVE to see it. We pull from everywhere and everything! Finny where you live? Anywhere in the Midwest USA? I'm all over the place in the Mid West... we got a pro event called Candlemass in Tennessee coming up. the best east of the Mississippi compete... How about you stop by and show us what ya got and why ya think we are doing it wrong? We get about 100+ top notch guys. Come show us what ya got! If ya don't live in the Mid West... I know a lot of people nationally. (even a few Britt"s and Fenchies too) I can send you to someone, so you can show them what ya got. I'd love to hear about it (Maybe we can even film it ) thing is though.... WE ARE all about respect though...know this! (we are just like your local boxing gym, MMA gym etc... if your gonna go in there and tell them they are boxing wrong your gonna have to put your money where your mouth is) Our world is a place where 'Know it all's" Bullies and Power Boasters don't come back because they get hit HARD and often! (the look in their eyes when they get hit or knocked down or whatever....It's FUCKING PRICELESS!!! )

In this game we all get hit, we all get knocked down, we all get our bells rung! it's expected!

Did I mention this is about the most intense, fun thing you can do on the planet?

[MaartenSFS]

...After sex, right??

Anyways, where does the SCA get their stuff from? Religious research into the combat manuals or from any art in the world that used weapons? I was always under the impression that ARMA was the most realistic (in the U.S, at least) and that SCA was more historical re-enactments.. I always wanted to get into that stuff but was either in China or Michigan.

[Ba-men]

easy Ba ,please
it was my "on fly"1st example for Finny when i googled " knight sword fight" ,
just to illustrate, that u can spar with the steel tools.

You posted ,/from the bottom one/:
- this is "forms application training" in my book
- 2nd and 4 th, are tournament fights with written rules
- 3rd and 5th /1st posted/ - groups fights looks somehow funny for me - I have no idea how they count the points, and why the Russian win for example ,
however "free sparring" should get flavour of both / in duel mode/

but, I`m novice in sword word, so i`m open for trainings advices.

First clip American Combat League/Battle of nations: Melee Rules are few. Trip, throw, reap, punch, kick, grapple but you have to use the weapon in combination doing it. No thrusting, yet everything else. No rules of engagement it's 360 degree watch your back thing! OUT by submitting or getting thrown down to the ground. Singles are timed 2 min rounds. Blows are counted like as in boxing, knock outs submitting etc.. all in play usually 5 rd bouts.

Second clip. SCA heavy Fencing: The SCA has several different tournament rules, ranging from "Pas de Arms" basically a submission bout to normal Crown tourney rules. Singles are not timed. Crown rules are Touch convention, (A touch being sufficient force to send a bowling ball 3 feet off a post.) Thrusting is allowed to all areas above the knees. Using the weapon to grapple is allowed, Not the hands.. example you can use your shield edge to move someone defense out of the way to strike him. (this can be done as a bash or a snatch or all points in between... depended how honorable one what's to be.) You can cross check someone's weapon or shield with a pole arm, put not the body or face. In crown rules Certain targets denote a kill, others give advantages (strike a leg your opponent takes a knee etc but its got to be done with real force and authority no ticky tact shit). Area of effect is 360 from the knees up. Pas de Arms rules, blows are not counted, its similar to a boxing match were its one long round till the loser gives up gassed or stunned witch ever comes first.

Third clip Penssic Melee engagement rules are in effect (can't power Jack someone from behind like in American combat league.) Thrust are allowed, knockdowns by shield bashing and pole arm cross checking allowed. Difference from the American combat league is your not dead if you get knocked down, you dead if you receive a killing blow (to the head or body) can't attack if opponent is prone either. Must wait till he get three points or less under him then ok.. So basically a good SCA Melee tactic to have is shield bash your opponent to the ground then kill him while he's getting up.. (happens all the time lol)

Other clips looked good so I posted them. The bastard sword tourney looked good because they were moving in 360 and not linear.

Attacking an armored opponent isn't like attacking a normal un-armored man. First and foremost both combatants are trying to use their weapons on their opponent. Grappling or attempting to Buffet an opponent in armour is secondary. It's not the gut check thing one does first. A) a lot of strikes just don't do shit. Most kicks don't either. Submission? kind of hard to choke a guy with a leather or steel gourge on (i,e Neck protection) Amrbars, key locks? Meh? ~~~ Got to remember there are weapons involved. Grappling is always centered on the weapon. Always looking to gain a superior position through either throwing, knocking a guy down, trying up his weapon so you can use yours etc. Always in a grappling both are trying to gain that critical position and space in which to use their own weapon(s) Its a different animal than what I see in MMA.

[Ba-men]

...After sex, right??

Anyways, where does the SCA get their stuff from? Religious research into the combat manuals or from any art in the world that used weapons? I was always under the impression that ARMA was the most realistic (in the U.S, at least) and that SCA was more historical re-enactments.. I always wanted to get into that stuff but was either in China or Michigan.

U say Michigan? Michigan is one of the best places to learn this stuff. Here in Metro Detroit we get guys from all around the the US and the world. (English speaking of course)

SCA doesn't re-enact. its more a full contact sport with a certain set of rules. Kinda like boxing with rattan. Since the rule set is wide open (360 up from the knees) if you can get a style to work.... Bring it to the party! Some people got some wild ass styles that work. A lot of what the SCA does is historical. (from a fencing aspect.. ala guards and blows etc)

American Combat league... that's just a free for all.. lol rugby in armor with metal clubs! Generally the thugs types ( I use the thug reference with respect!) do better in the American Combat league/battle of nations format...Some people are geared better for Melee than singles and the fencer does better in the SCA. (SCA stresses weapon skill more)

Their are professional armors who make munition grade or custom kits... also their are different armor regulations for both organizations