Miaodao against other types of sword

[leifeng]

I first learned Chen style Jian/dao forms but at that point I wasn't concerned about weapons so I never learned any application drills or sparring so I'm a bit clueless about the application of weapons. I'm currently learning Miaodao with application and sparring and I want to know more about the pros and cons of the other types of sword comparing to Miaodao and the type of battle each type was built for. I'd appreciate if someone can tell me more about them or show me any relevant articles.

[jonathan.bluestein]

Who are you learning from? This would determine what it would be used for.

Historically Miao Dao was mostly used against two types of weapons in different periods and scenarios - against spears (larger scale battles), and against swords similar to itself (naval and coastline pirates, border terrorism/raids). Spears equal staffs in that context, as where there are spears there would be broken spears, and broken spears are staffs.

The Miao Dao incorporated into the Pigua Zhang lineages carries the art's flavour. The mechanics are also very (!) similar to those of the Pigua staff (Feng Mo Gun). So similar that I can practice the Miao Dao form with the Staff and vice-versa with ease after only minor modifications (I even suspect this was intended). In this lineage, though one could easily adapt to sword fighting, most of the techniques are meant to operate against a spear or a staff.

I see now that many others have adapted the Miao Dao to sword vs. sword usage. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion, though if using techniques exactly as taken from the Pigua Miao Dao Taulu (Er Lu), without modification, this would be a misinterpretation. Many have anyhow recreated the Miao Dao skills from books, and in China there are other Miao Dao lineages, some of which probably preserved sword-vs-sword fighting with this weapon.

My personal opinion on the matter is that the Miao Dao suits only specific types of body methods (shen fa). A Jian wouldn't be the correct weapon for Xing Yi mechanics. A very long spear doesn't go as well with Bagua Zhang. A nine section whip isn't the right choice for Okinawan Karate. The Miao Dao, too, works better with specific styles. Nonetheless, I have been seeing attempts to make it work with Xing Yi, for instance. I find that awkward at best.

You can read more here:
http://cookdingskitchen.blogspot.co.il/ ... sword.html

This article features a lot of info on the Miao Dao in general, and contains many comparisons with other swords.

[leifeng]

Wow, thanks! That was a nice article.

[Ba-men]

Interesting topic. Chinese Swordsmanship is a love of mine. I do a lot of western historical heavy fencing and bring a lot of my Chinese sword forms into it. I have a lot of practical experience in fencing.

Jonathan , I imagined the Miao's technique was be more circular like Pigua.

The slashing and cutting factor of swords against an armored oppoen't is diminished. I haven't seen a demonstration where a sword could cleave through a helmet. Dent it yes and cause a concussion thus stunning the opponent? Sure as rain! On Chain mail it takes several blows to cut through it. (better the quality of sword the less times) Plate mail, Brigandine and Lamellar were all use to a high degree in the East. Because of these armor types, often the "real" techniques of these weapons involved mechanics that we wouldn't think are realistic or just plain not think of because we only look at the weapon for recreational purposes. A lot of perspectives on what medieval combat was like is flawed. I'm assuming its the same with Eastern arts.

Targeting was different against an armored opponent. With pole arms a lot attacks where aimed at the feet/legs. I'd classify a Maio dao as a pole arm. I imagine a Miao dao has a lot of techniques designed to attack the lower part of the body. Being a big piece of metal it should at the very least cause some serious impact dmg. I've seen a lot of Kwon Dao forms in my day and I'd say a lot of what I have seen are attacks directed at feet/legs.

A lot of period sword techniques in the West and in the East had very different mechanics than what the modern practitioners thinks. In all actuality big power wind ups, thrust to the face and groin attacks to feet and legs, techniques with the weapon designed to knock the opponent down off their feet etc...

Most of us just try to fence with a weapon (like kendo etc...) I don't have a Miao Dao in my linage but i do have have a Da dao. It's a Katana on steroids. Its a big cleaver, its a big metal club, its a short staff(with all the grappling forays of a short staff) and its a thrusting weapons. With the big mass at the end just like the nian dao, (ox tail saber) blade on blade contact would have little effect.

[yeniseri]

Great River Taoist Center has a Form dedicated to Swordsmanship and they provide background information.
http://forum.grtc.org/

If one has had any exposure to staff or spear, then at least 60-70% of miandao skill is already there. The distinction is the blade and weight positioning as a way to increase that level of knowledge and understanding of miandiao along with skill drills.

[Bob]

Interesting topic. Chinese Swordsmanship is a love of mine. I do a lot of western historical heavy fencing and bring a lot of my Chinese sword forms into it. I have a lot of practical experience in fencing.

Jonathan , I imagined the Miao's technique was be more circular like Pigua.

The slashing and cutting factor of swords against an armored oppoen't is diminished. I haven't seen a demonstration where a sword could cleave through a helmet. Dent it yes and cause a concussion thus stunning the opponent? Sure as rain! On Chain mail it takes several blows to cut through it. (better the quality of sword the less times) Plate mail, Brigandine and Lamellar were all use to a high degree in the East. Because of these armor types, often the "real" techniques of these weapons involved mechanics that we wouldn't think are realistic or just plain not think of because we only look at the weapon for recreational purposes. A lot of perspectives on what medieval combat was like is flawed. I'm assuming its the same with Eastern arts.

Targeting was different against an armored opponent. With pole arms a lot attacks where aimed at the feet/legs. I'd classify a Maio dao as a pole arm. I imagine a Miao dao has a lot of techniques designed to attack the lower part of the body. Being a big piece of metal it should at the very least cause some serious impact dmg. I've seen a lot of Kwon Dao forms in my day and I'd say a lot of what I have seen are attacks directed at feet/legs.

A lot of period sword techniques in the West and in the East had very different mechanics than what the modern practitioners thinks. In all actuality big power wind ups, thrust to the face and groin attacks to feet and legs, techniques with the weapon designed to knock the opponent down off their feet etc...

Most of us just try to fence with a weapon (like kendo etc...) I don't have a Miao Dao in my linage but i do have have a Da dao. It's a Katana on steroids. Its a big cleaver, its a big metal club, its a short staff(with all the grappling forays of a short staff) and its a thrusting weapons. With the big mass at the end just like the nian dao, (ox tail saber) blade on blade contact would have little effect.

It is my understanding that the miao dao did not originate in the pi gua system but as Jonathan indicates that it was adopted by the pi gua system and perhaps changed from its original practice. I don't know if this is 100% accurate but that is what I learned regarding the miao dao:

http://miaodaointernational.com/about-m ... %E5%88%80/

About Miao Dao (苗刀)

The mentioning of the Miao Dao (苗刀) brings to mind General Qi Jiguang (戚继光) and his efforts in warding of pirates, or Wokou, from China’s east coast during the mid 1500s period. The pirates were not easily defeated. Qi Jiguang analysed their tactics, weapons and fighting methods and took several years to create winning strategies, one of which is the use of a double-handed long blade to counter the pirate’s samurai swords. Qi Jiguang later updated the documented strategies《纪效新书》 – initially published in 1560 – to include《辛酉刀法》, adding two chapters to the original eighteen. Probably the first manual in the history of China on fighting with a double-handed long blade, many practitioners of modern Miao Dao (苗刀) regard Qi Jiquang’s 《辛酉刀法》 as the origin and source of their art. Below is a documentary (with english subtitles) providing more details about Qi Jiguang and the double-handed long blade:

The Miao Dao (苗刀) is characterized by its long blade and long handle, often exceeding 1.2m in total. With its length, the Miao Dao is a versatile weapon with good effective range, which can be achieved through a series of single and double hand movement and techniques.

Due to the double handed movements, the forms related to the Miao Dao are often mistaken to present techniques related to Japanese swordsmanship. In fact the resemblance between the Miao Dao and the Japanese sword (Nodachi/Tachi/Katana) techniques is the result of cultural exchanges spanning almost a thousand years. In the Tang period (618 to 907) large quantities of Chinese long swords made its way to Japan, and during the Ming period (1368 to 1644) similar amounts of Japanese swords were imported to China.

The picture below shows a typical Miao Dao available in the market today. The total length is 1.4m, with a handle and blade length of 0.4m and 1m respectively. The blade is made of high carbon steel and the handle and scabbard are made from quality redwood. When held without the scabbard, it weighs about 1.2 kg.

Miao Dao

Along with the different periods of Chinese History, the Miao Dao took on slightly different forms and name, but its function and length remains largely the same. In the Han (206BC to 220AD) and Ming periods, it is called Chang Dao (长刀) and the term Miao Dao (苗刀) only came about in the early republican period. The reason for this emergence cannot be confirmed but we know of several speculations including those associating Miao Dao to the Miao ethnic (苗族) minority in China, or to the Miao mountain (苗山) , or to the shape of the grain leaf, or to certain martial arts novel in the pre-republican period where this term was first written.

Shown below are pictures of the Chang Dao (长刀) from the Ming period.

Ming Chang Dao




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gp6xObyOxpM

[jonathan.bluestein]

My teacher learned the older (pre-Pigua) Miao Dao form, and says: "...It was slower, and had many more steps, compared to the modern one I know. It focused more on large, expansive and flowing motion, in contrast with the more compact structure of the modern Pigua Miao Dao form, which has lots of explosive movements. It was also less ‘whipping’. This experience showed us that after the assimilation of Miao Dao into Pigua in the early 20th century, it had been influenced a lot by the body mechanics of that style...".

"The slashing and cutting factor of swords against an armored oppoen't is diminished." - yeah well, the Chinese and their enemies on Chinese soil were never as heavily armored as in Medieval Europe - especially not the pirates and border attackers the Miao Dao was mostly employed against.

"I imagine a Miao dao has a lot of techniques designed to attack the lower part of the body." - stabbing exists but is less common. Most techniques cover a lot of ground - trying to pass through lots of body mass instead on a given point. It is a Pigua characteristic, too - striking is rarely overly specific, but rather whips through a broad cross section.

Unlike the Da Dao, the Miao Dao isn't a 'giant cleaver'. Its balance makes it feel like a Katana. It is agile despite its size, not overly given to sway in one direction.

Bob - thanks a lot for the interesting documentary! :-D

[edededed]

Miaodao is perhaps not a very common weapon - pigua and tongbei seem to have it, any others?
Chuojiaofanziquan seems to have methods and routine(s?) for the Japanese katana, though.

You can see a bit of the flavor of CMA sword usage in the 2-person routines (bagua's duipidao, taijiquan's duijian, etc.)...

[leifeng]

Miaodao is perhaps not a very common weapon - pigua and tongbei seem to have it, any others?

Some XYLH people also seem to practice Miaodao (starting at 1:40) : http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/kZxUq_QPxTI/

[Jarek]

Miao Dao is not a weapon that belongs to Xinyi Liuhe Quan system. I believe what Ma demonstrates on the video is so-called Wansheng Miaodao taught in northern Anhui. Liang Hongxuan from Bengbu is its most well-known teacher and author of a book on the system - who happens to be also Xinyi Liuhe Quan practitioner, just like Ma Zhiqiang. XYLHQ in Anhui comes from Song Guobin, who taught both XYLH and Xingyi, as well as some Shaolin methods, so this branch is hardly to be considered orthodox.

[leifeng]

You are right. It's just in the Anhui XYLH. Actually I first saw Miaodao in a XYLH demonstration and that's how I got interested. Since we don't have it in Shanghai branch I found a pigua guy to teach me.
BTW Ma Zhiqiang and Zhang Yunlong are not from Song Guobin's branch. They are from Zhoukou's Shi Yaozu-Shang Xueli branch. I'm not sure where they got the Miaodao from.
Anyway are you sure it's Wansheng Miaodao? I have to check it later but I feel the form is a bit different.
Edit:OK, it is Wansheng but I remember a Zhang Yunlong video(心意长刀） that seemed a bit different. Looks like it is not there anymore.

[Jarek]

Indeed Zhang Yunlong and Ma Zhiqiang (his disciple) are not from Song's branch, but - as you correctly pointed out - Zhang learnt from Shi Yaozu, the last disciple of Shang Xueli. Apparently Zhang studied also Xingyi and Bagua from Pan Xiaojie from Xuzhou.
There is no Miaodao in any branch of XYLHQ that I know of, and if somebody practices this weapon, I'm quite sure it does not come as a part of the style curriculum, but from other sources.
For example - a few of my Hui Xinyi Liuhe brothers here in Shanghai also know and practice Miaodao. They learnt it from master Bao Guanyuan, who teaches Heyi Tongbei coming from Liu Yuchun, and Miaodao is a part of that system.
There is a lot of truth to what Jonathan alluded to - Miaodao as we know it requiries specific body method, and since it usually comes in a package with Tongbei/Pigua, the body method of these two styles seems most suitable for Miaodao.
On the other hand XYLHQ includes double handed sword in its curriculum, and its method naturally is very much in line with the style.

Many XYLHQ practitioners also train with heavy Da Dao/Guan Dao/halberd, although it does not belong to the system either. However it is a method to develop general strength rather than applicable skill with the weapon. Many Huis took part in military examinations and lifting heavy halberd was a part of the exam. Hence I suspect the halberd practice comes from that tradition.

Generally speaking in spite of the stories describing Xinyi as a bare hand fighting system based on spear methods, neither Dai style nor Henan XYLHQ put much emphasis on spear practice. Dai stylists prefer short staff, while Henan folks large flail.

[leifeng]

Well Henan XYLH guys have mostly been Hui which means Chaquan in childhood maybe some Qishiquan and then XYLH give or take a few styles so many of them practice all kinds of weapons in different branches but personally I think only spear and maybe to some extent Panlonggun are suitable for XYLH's way of movement. I have just started Miaodao but it also seems to be a very suitable weapon for XYLH practitioners which explains the attraction.
BTW what do you mean by double handed sword in XYLH? Any videos?

[leifeng]

Found Zhang Yunlong's Xinyi Changdao:
http://v.ku6.com/show/24E8jJRujWnYinPpzuJv6g...html?ptag=vsogou

So basically he is rebranding it as a XYLH weapon. It's not like the weapons are copyrighted.

[yeniseri]

The fellow is wielding it like a dao in some instance, in others (stabbing/pointing ) per jian. Cradling the miaodao does seem against "process" and utility but it seems to be working only becaise of the lightness of the tool.
Anyone familiar with the weight range of the miandao?