The absurdity of Single Whip

[Steve James]

Afa SW, Wile would say that it went back much earlier than the 19th century. There's a thread going on right now about the miao dao. Of course, the guy famous for training the Chinese to use it against the Japanese pirates was General Qi Jiguang, who wrote a (the?) first martial arts training manual. Wile wrote about this too, btw. Here's from the wiki. Note the names of the postures.

The following is a listing of the original 32 Boxing Methods identified by General Qi Jiguang in his training manual - Ji Xiao Xin Shu (紀效新書), Chapter 14, also sometimes identified as “The Boxing Canon”. Among the arts General Qi states that he examined for his material are well-known practices such as Taiso Chang Chuan ( " Zhao Taizu Long Fist"), Liu Ho Chuan ("Six-Step Boxing") and Hou Chuan ( "Monkey Boxing"). General Qi also identified “among the best contemporary styles are the "Thirty-six Posture Locking Form", "24 Throws Pat on Horse", "Eight Evasive Maneuvers", “Twelve Postures Closing Boxing”, “Lu Hungs Eight Throws”.....”Cotton Changs’ Close Boxing”, “LI Pan-tien of Shantung Leg Techniques”, “Eagle Claw Wang’s Grappling Techniques”, “Thousand Falls Chang’s Falling Techniques”, “CHANG Po-chings’ Striking Techniques”. Having been disappointed with the poor quality of conscripts coming from China's cities, General Qi drew heavily from the rural areas for the hardiness of its farmers. As a result, many allusions to training, and training methods, mentioned in General Qi's writing use non-technical, even fanciful titles and terms which could be appreciated by an illiterate rural conscript. This format was continued through the Joseon Dynasty and some examples of the Korean equivalent for Chinese labels are given in the following list. As was the custom for such writing during the Ming Dynasty, each method is characterized by a brief poem structured according to the manner of those times and identified with a title which captured the essence of the fighting method. (“Herein we have illustrated the postures and annotated them with aphorisms to enlighten future students.”) An example of this is provided at the end of the listing.

thod. (“Herein we have illustrated the postures and annotated them with aphorisms to enlighten future students.”) An example of this is provided at the end of the listing.

Ji Xiao Xin Shu; Chapter 14 (Boxing Canon) 1st page of commentary

1. Casually Hitch-up your Clothes: Identifies the need for both mental and physical preparation for an encounter
2. Golden Rooster: Stand on One Leg: Identifies the Importance of Balance relative to terrain †
3. The Spy Techniques (Scouting Horse Posture Tammase (탐 마 세) 探 馬 勢): Identifies the nature of a "Host" forward hand and a "Guest" rearhand
4. Stretch out the Whip
5. Seven Star Strike: Identifies the nature of "Inside" striking techniques
6. Mount the Dragon Backwards (Falling and Riding the Dragon Posture Dokiryongse)
7. Suspend the leg as empty bait False Prey Posture Hyunkak Huheese (현 각 허 이 세) 顯 脚 虛 餌 勢
8. The Qiu Liu Posture
9. Lower Jabbing Position
10. Ambush Crouch Posture (Ambushing Posture Maebokse)
11. Cast the Body Forward
12. Taking the Elbow in Hand Posture
13. One Instant Step (Drizzling Walk Posture Ilsahpbose (일 삽 보 세) 一 霎步 勢)
14. Capture and Grab Stance
15. Mid-Guard Posture (Middle Four Levels Posture Joongsapyeongse (중 사 평 세) 中 四 平 勢)
16. Crouched Tiger Posture (Prone Tiger Posture Bokhose (복 호 세) 伏 虎 勢)
17. High Guard Posture (High Four Levels Posture)
18. Reverse Stabbing Position
19. Well-railing Four-wise Balanced
20. Ghost Kick
21. Finger Opposition Posture
22. Beast Head Position
23. Spirit Fist
24. Single Whip (Single Whip Posture Yodanpyunse (요 단 편 세) 拗 單 鞭 勢)
25. Coiled Leg Method
26. Yang-Facing Hand
27. Wild Goose Wings (Goose Wing Posture Ahnshi Chukshinse)
28. Straddling Tiger Posture (Straddling Tiger Posture Koahose)
29. Joining Together the Luan Elbows
30. Cannonball against the Head
31. Synchronize the Luan Elbows
32. Banners and Drums Posture

† 2. Golden Cockerel stands on One Leg lowers and raises.
Feint with the leg and strike sideways with the fist.
Throw the opponent on his back with arms and legs in the air.
When the opponent encounters this technique, his cries will reach high heaven."[3]

IInm, here's Qi's illustration of SW or "twisted single whip." (I might have the wrong illustration, but can't get to my books right now. If anyone has that pic, please correct).

[windwalker]

That's a really good point. Still, all of the proper CMA fights that I've seen look quite different.

I have too. Karate also has a very specific look to it too when 2 stylists square up. As does Silat, Savate, Capoeira etc etc. But those are just cultural, historical or competitive preferences. It doesn't mean you'll never see similar moves outside of those arts in completely unrelated ones. I find in fighting there are more commonalities than differences, which I suspect is the reason your sifu isn't married to one particular style over the other. As you're telling us now, he's trying to find the most efficient distillation of what hes been practicing all these years. Which I believe is the best way.

Look how MMA has evolved over the years for example. I remember years ago some people in the MMA community used to swear up and down how those karate and kung fu like high kicks and spinning this or that would be suicide in a cage fight because of the grappling aspect and them believing it would leave you completely vulnerable to being taken down. Grapplers were wiping the floor with traditional strikers back then. But these days its taken for granted when wrestlers flicks a roundhouse to a guys earlobe before going down for the double. Karate was also pretty much a running joke in MMA years ago, but Liddell, GSP and Machida made it work and got their belts. I personally like Machida because you can see his Karate and Sumo training at work clear as day. Best take down defense in the game imo. You see Capoeira and TKD techniques used regularly in the cage and if more CMA stylists entered the cage, palm strikes, backhands, hammerfists and shadow kicks would be taken for granted and just trained like everything else that works. It'd be just another possible tool in the box with no differentiation about where it came from or from whom. I appreciate the MMA philosophy in that regard. Fighters just want what works. If dudes jump into the cage, adapt their push hands skills and start uprooting wrestlers left and right best believe you'll see it become the norm too.

Fighters just want what works. If dudes jump into the cage, adapt their push hands skills and start uprooting wrestlers left and right best believe you'll see it become the norm too

very much agree with this and your post. although ph skill sets would take a while to develop something that most will not really devote the time to doing.
I would add that historically that this is an old argument about how something looks or is used.
.
the MMA group is IMO evolving/evolved, into its own style, has little to do with CMA except for those that use it as some kind of measuring stick for what works and does not.
As some others have mentioned there are some very competent people out there who dont enter into such events their practices are done for different reasons.

[GrahamB]

Steve, I mean 'created' in the sense of 'created out of existing material. Sure the roots of single whip could go way back, but the tai chi version got appropriated by yang LuChan or the chens, depending on which side of the historical fence you sit on.

The idea being the taichi was a product of its time - a response to the threatened idea of nationalism.

[Steve James]

The idea being the taichi was a product of its time - a response to the threatened idea of nationalism.

Personally, I agree with Wile's thesis about nationalism even to the point where the inherent definition of what "internal" meant to the nationalists, like Sun, etc. We can almost certainly say that the emphasis on tcc as a "health" art was a late development.

Where I disagree is that that's when it was decided that SW application should be this or that. If it existed previously, and put in a martial arts training manual, then it must have had an application or it was merely included as an ornament.

[Michael Babin]

Something that one of my teachers said to me a long time ago, really stuck in my mind and affected how I teach basic applications of form movement from a Yang style perspective. Basically, "form applications show you how to defeat an attacker who loses their temper and has no skill to back it up; but, in the long run, developing ability to do such applications is mainly to help you understand the reasons behind the body mechanics of the slow form."

In practical terms, doing realistic applications training requires the "dummy" to actually aim at targets and use enough speed and force at a realistic range so that the "good guy" has to work hard without tensing up or needlessly hurting his partner; then they switch roles. Doing this kind of stuff is only useful if you do a lot of other martial training games including, but not limited to, a variety of push-hands games.

My 2¢

[yeniseri]

I mentioned a continuium within Single Whip, which is rarely static in an encounter.




time period of 0400-0415 are elements of that continuium with formation of Single Whip in various setting up strategies along to final endpoint. There is always movement along that continumium and the individual effects some change along said continuium or at the end of the final posture, in some configuration. There is the element of the 'feint' to set up a reaction to help in that continuium, and this occurs between 0250-0330, where a faux reaction through pavlovian previous feints, elicits a knowing response despite no actions being followed through with.

[Bao]

Personally, I agree with Wile's thesis about nationalism even to the point where the inherent definition of what "internal" meant to the nationalists, like Sun, etc. We can almost certainly say that the emphasis on tcc as a "health" art was a late development.

Yes, that's true.

For single whip:

Old Wu (Jianquan)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... 0ERP8#t=50
Old Wu (Wu Yuxiang)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... yyhI#t=188
Hao
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... D8x4E#t=36
Sun
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... AIUds#t=12

If you look at these clips above, there isn't much anything "single" about them, no stopping up and the movements are not very much expressed. They are more or less a change from one side to another.

If we look at the name, "Bian" as in whip is more or less the same pronunciation as "change". So there are people who believe that the name is a misinterpretation of "single change" (just like what the bagua move is usually called). And some people believe that the original name comes from nei dan, so then the "dan" should not be "single" but "elixir" as in "dantian". Well, IMHO, both "single change" and "elixir change" is better than "single whip". The modern name "single whip" just cause confusion and how people understand it as a physical movement nowadays nowadays is often very much against tai chi shen fa principles.

[Steve James]

Btw, I don't mean to say that emphasis on tcc as a health art was a negative. Rather, curing the "sick man of Asia" was the goal and martial arts training was considered to be a good method. TCC, as it was modified, was considered "the best" for that purpose. Culturally, it was also something that masses of people could do. Well, whaddyaknow, masses of people still do it for that primary reason. And ya gotta admit that there are lots of spry elderly Chinese to this day .

[D_Glenn]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZL2rsvdD ... re=related

Dan Bian Single whip.

[Steve James]

Ooh, a qinna app Ever check out Yang Jwing Ming's stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Etvn0wmBkaU

[Dajenarit]

I'm kind of digging these. Me and wifey were playing around trying to make something of single whip and thats basically what we got. I wonder how it would fair full speed though....

[Andy_S]

SNIP
Wow. I am really having a hard time imagining the underhook. Seems complicated.
SNIP

Omar:

Written description is awkward; demo is shit simple.

Here is a nice tape by Erik Poulson 1:33 - 5:55 showing the underhook - or arm drag, as he prefers to call it - from clinch. (I would add that the drills he shows here are excellent.) The underhook he applies is the exact action of the hook hand in single whip (as I have learned it in Chen style). And this is how the hook hand is applied in Chenjiagou: Chen Jun (Chen Xiaoxing's younger son, and Chen Ziqiang's brother) taught me this application in person.

Obviously, Paulson is using the underhook to pass the arm and grappler rather than using Taijiquan. But if you want to apply a full "single whip," after arm dragging (with your right, rear hook hand), you use your elbow and/or palm (with your left, front hand) as required and - bingo!

To me this makes a hell of a lot more sense ( and is a lot simpler to apply) that the apps show above by Chen XIaowang (a complex qinna app of the hook hand for an un unusual situation - ie someone has a wrist control on you) or that shown by Ken Gullette (which simply do not work against a resisting opponent).

But to each his own.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yqjVvJfAVE

[GrahamB]

Andy, like Omar I had no idea what you were talking about - it's because that's not an underhook, it's an arm drag. In an arm drag you cross their body. An 'underhook' is where you go under their arm on the same side.

[cdobe]

I'm kind of digging these. Me and wifey were playing around trying to make something of single whip and thats basically what we got. I wonder how it would fair full speed though....

Nice to finally put a face to your name and see you and your wifey explore the usage of single whip...

[Dajenarit]

I'm kind of digging these. Me and wifey were playing around trying to make something of single whip and thats basically what we got. I wonder how it would fair full speed though....

Nice to finally put a face to your name and see you and your wifey explore the usage of single whip...

I walked into that one the way I worded it huh?

More like we were trying out possible apps in the living room. Afterwards searching on youtube I found that Ken Gullette video and it pretty much matched in alot of instances, what me and her were trying out. But like I said, it starts looking questionable if done at anything close to full speed. It turns into more of an arm break at that point when stepping to the outside if you really have to put speed and force into it. Thats the only way to make it appear close to what people recognize as that expanded single whip. If your not worried so much about appearances and you tighten your arms up its basically a parry and strike at the same time. Trying to catch a punch with the hook hand just leads to getting punched in the face in our little test.