Why I Quit Forms..

[MaartenSFS]

Every master or fighter that I have met in China that doesn't make their living teaching martial arts doesn't do forms. When they train, they train very basic Gongli exercises, most of which double up as combat applications. The only ones that do forms are those that can fight but are earning a living from it (rare) or those doing it just for performance. I think that I will follow the former camp. I have noticed the most radical improvements came from the Gongli exercises and training individual techniques and since we only have so much time in a day, I should not be wasting it on doing forms properly or aesthetically pleasing for that matter. The beauty will come when I've done these simple exercises a million times and they feel effortless, yet powerful and I can use each one to deadly effect..

[hodmeist]

Wang Xiangzhai reincarnated !!
Seriously Maarten, I have been having similar thoughts for a while now. The more I investigate Yiquan, the more it makes sense. I am not saying you are training Yiquan but a lot of what you say above I have come across when investigation Wang Xiangzhai's method. Good luck.... I would be very interested in your feedback as you progress.

[cloudz]

to be honest, there's not any difference in the end for me. But you should do both really and then make your choices. I still do both..

there is absolutely NO reason everything in your gongli / neigong/ jibengong / weigong/ qigong cannot be in your forms (it of course 100% should be!) and your forms not to contain combat applications. Strung together or not what difference does it make.. performance and "looking good" is not what it's about. And wasn't it your current teacher you posted clips of doing TCC form not long ago ?

I keep the form because my time is limited and it hits a lot of things at once - for me, so sometimes it is more suitable. I do single exercise too of course, but form gives you something else and it gives me a truer sense of style and continuous movement. Moving Zhuang if you like, I think that's a great tool for TCC training.

Maybe it's a tai chi thing and something I have gotten so used to, I won't do without it. Main thing is I enjoy doing it.

To be honest, these forms/ exercises short or long are not anything to do with combat or fighting (directly) in of themselves so I don't fall for that shit at all. You learn to fight with partners, end of. Not doing solo exercises - whatever they are.

[Steve Rowe]

Playing the scales on the piano is always good exercise - playing a tune now and then is much better.

[neijia_boxer]

yin yang-

for forms: as a vehicle for qi circulation and yi-body-mind coordination. contains essence of the art and encoded martial techniqes.

against forms: over emphasis as a"means-to-an-end" view by 98% of IMA folks.

[MaartenSFS]

Wang Xiangzhai reincarnated !!
Seriously Maarten, I have been having similar thoughts for a while now. The more I investigate Yiquan, the more it makes sense. I am not saying you are training Yiquan but a lot of what you say above I have come across when investigation Wang Xiangzhai's method. Good luck.... I would be very interested in your feedback as you progress.

Although my master trained in Yiquan at some point and there is an emphasis on Zhanzhuang, in his system it is only the legs that aren't moving. Neither of us are patient enough for Yiquan.

[MaartenSFS]

to be honest, there's not any difference in the end for me. But you should do both really and then make your choices. I still do both..

there is absolutely NO reason everything in your gongli / neigong/ jibengong / weigong/ qigong cannot be in your forms (it of course 100% should be!) and your forms not to contain combat applications. Strung together or not what difference does it make.. performance and "looking good" is not what it's about. And wasn't it your current teacher you posted clips of doing TCC form not long ago ?

I keep the form because my time is limited and it hits a lot of things at once - for me, so sometimes it is more suitable. I do single exercise too of course, but form gives you something else and it gives me a truer sense of style and continuous movement. Moving Zhuang if you like, I think that's a great tool for TCC training.

Maybe it's a tai chi thing and something I have gotten so used to, I won't do without it. Main thing is I enjoy doing it.

To be honest, these forms short or long are not anything to do with combat or fighting in of themselves so I don't fall for that shit at all. You learn to fight with partners, end of. Not doing solo exercises - whatever they are.

In my experience doing the Gongli training and the techniques in isolation yields far greater results than doing repetitions of the forms. And a group of visiting masters liked my Taiji form. It's more fun to do the form for sure, but, like I said, there's only so much time in a day and I'm looking for results.

[cloudz]

depends I suppose. greater results quantified how? For developing individual things in isolation they are better (single exercises) - for putting your different ingredients together a longer sequence I find is useful.

maybe at the stage you are, they are "better" because you have not had the development they are giving you now. But sure, sometimes it is subjective or individual - how such results are quantified.. doing both at the end of the day, seems the best road for me anyway from what I want from my training. But sure, the time you have to spend is a big factor.

[Wanderingdragon]

My experience is, it is not that form is unnecessary but that form is part of the evolution, if you have not truly come to understand your form, it's technique and principle, you cannot shead it's necessity. I guarantee you anyone that is skill in Chinese boxing and does not do forms, has a million forms wrapped in his experience.

[Steve James]

How are you going to pass on a tradition without forms?

[roger hao]

My experience is the inverse -

Teaching - the students never quite get there regards the forms so it's basics over and over with the result you mention

Workouts with brothers - it's the forms at correct speed and intensity - not something beginner or intermediate player can keep up with.

Capoeria - it's Jogo Mundo Dia.

Shuai Chiao - it's bangin' all the way

[yeniseri]

To paraphrase Mr Rowe "playing scales are good for enunciation, practice, tuning, etc but depending on level of virtuosity, a great song is welcomed"!
I do teach form because it is fun! Additinally, I have been in classes with a few teachers where when ever they taught ZZ and neigong stuff, people just do not show up.

RULE OF THUMB: Forms are good because students show up, if for that reason alone. Had posters for a 2 day ZZ course and no one showed up so I taught an 8 shi taijigong class for free since I rented the location. No good deed.................

[Ba-men]

I think gravitating to one side or another isn't good idea. I've done both...

IMO you got to use a form for what it was intentionally designed for: i.e. The catalog of tactics (and in many cases strategy) of the art. Spending a great deal of time perfecting your performance of a form if your looking to actually have prowess is counter productive. Form over function is... one looks pretty but that's about it. Teaching the form is the very last thing I do, its done after the student has assimilated the tactics and strategies within it.

USE THE FORM LIKE A TOOL. (as it was intended to be) Not as a performance piece... Personally I don't give two shit's how anyone does a form. I never have... All the forms competitions at events/tournaments look pathetic to me. (same goes with posting them on Youtube.. unless of course your doing it to teach the form... that's different.) Don't chase forms... knowing a lot of forms doesn't mean shit! (actually it means you have wasted a lot of your time!)

Use the form as your syllabus! Example: yesterday I worked on my juezitui (feint kick/horse kick) from a sequence. In the form the kick is used if you fail to connect with the opponent. There is a pushing an opponent away method/tactic with it(to gain space) I worked the kick using the bag. (shadow box etc) I worked the kick off combo's and repositioning etc..Till my legs were spent! And when I spar I'll train it then too. (very rarely to I spar to win... use the time for honing my skills) Basically I break the application down and approach it as a singular event and hone into being applicable. I'm pretty sure that's what the originators did.

Overall form work.. With long fist (pretty sure same with IMA forms ) By doing them at increased speed and intensity you train your cardio. Road work cardio isn't the same as fight cardio. Many of these forms were used for training fight cardio. The up and down, jumping side to side... along with proper breathing (that's why in many forms one is taught correct where to breath and were not to breath... or should have been) In many forms there is strength training of your core (yao) There is a lot going on in a TCMA form. A lot of the time that weird movement isn't an application but a technique designed for strength training or to denote a a sub tactic etc etc... (most of us know this though)

Through all this your hard-wiring these tactics and strategy's (what's that old saying... 10,000 times leads to mastery)

The extreme other spectrum (and I've done this too) where you just work basic Gongli exercises I've found you have to rely a lot more on your sparring to keep your prowess (which is good if you continue to always spar) since one doesn't work on repetitions as much, your techniques fades if you don't spar (your hard wired tactics retard quicker) Staying in shape goes quicker too. (since one is using the actuality of sparing for the cardio) ... the plus side is one trains the non engagement side to a much greater extent! (just doing gong li allows for more sparing, hence focusing on your timing, footwork, tempo ala Fight dynamics! ... i.e. Much of the real quantitative skills that make a fighter!!!)

I think ya got to find a balance. And I also think age has a lot to play in it too. I'm getting older so there is an increasing amount of time I have to spend doing road work, bag work, cardio form work,strength maintenance, basics etc... to just keep what I got in the ring. (or when I heavy fence.. ala the list) its about a 5 hour to 1 hour ratio... Aging sucks but with it comes wisdom and experience... both I put into effect often against my younger more youthful opponents.

[Dajenarit]

Not a fan of forms either. Personally I think it complicates things too much.

[Bao]

Every master or fighter that I have met in China that doesn't make their living teaching martial arts doesn't do forms. When they train, they train very basic Gongli exercises, most of which double up as combat applications.

And you have met how many masters and fighters in China? And you have studied for how long? 3 or 4 years according to the info you provided here, and only a couple of years of IMA. In my book that's not enough time to perfect even one single form (yet, you write forms in plural). But you decided to quit forms because you've met some "masters" who don't practice form?
... Ok, I think I have the whole picture clear...
...

.... Maybe I got the wrong book then...