tai chi chuan definitions

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: tai chi chuan definitions

Postby Wuyizidi on Thu Jan 08, 2015 4:53 pm

The basic purpose of Taiji Quan is the same with any other martial art - it is a weapon, a tool you use to disable your opponent, which often meant killing or injuring him to prevent him from doing the same to you.

It is a very sophisticated tool. It is called Taiji Quan because it is a martial art based on Taiji the philosophical principle. We can think of Taiji Quan as an app for Taiji the concept as it is applied in the area of martial art. For this reason, it is always said the highest purpose of taiji quan is by doing this physical practice guided by Taiji idea, we come to understand Taiji, and the larger picture it is a critical part of - Dao. This is similar to what people do with yoga - concepts are abstract, a student need concrete examples to practice the idea, and with enough practice, understand the underlying idea.

Then the key question is what is Taiji. It's not enough to say it's an interplay between Yin and Yang. That would be too broad: wu xing is interplay between yin and yang, so is ba gua. Taiji specifically is yin and yang existing at the same time within one entity. If they are separate entities, that's called liang yi. Example: if someone pushes toward our left arm, we first move that arm away (yin), then attack him in some way (yang), that's an example of liang yi. This is how every other martial art operates. That obviously can work. We can definitely use that to win fights (effectiveness). But it is not considered Taiji skill.

To be considered application of Taiji principle, we need to do yin and yang the same time. So let's talk about that yin part first: in the above example, if someone pushes our left upper arm, we do not attempt to resist with that arm (fight), or move it away (flight). Doing either means we are actively guiding the action of that spot where the opponent is attacking (he is yang in that spot, that is where his mind is). Try to solve the problem directly on our trouble spot meant we are putting our mind there as well. So we have a yang on yang interaction. This is called double-weightedness, which, according to taiji the philosophical concept, is not the most efficient way to solve conflicts. So even merely thinking "don't resist with this arm" is wrong, because the key thing is our mind is still there.

So what is real yin then? Yin means passive. Passive means you have no mind - no idea of your own. If you're visiting a friend, and he asks you to follow him in your car to get to a restaurant you never even heard of, you just follow him, whereever he goes, you follow, your every action is result of his action - that is true passiveness. That's what we need to do on that spot he's attacking, you have no idea, no opinion, no wish or intention (not even "yield here, don't struggle") of any sort about that spot, it's like it has nothing to do with us. We are totally ignoring it.

But if we just do that, it's not taiji, because it's pure yin. And just allowing the opponent to do whatever he wants to that spot will lead to us losing. Yin without yang is not softness, it's weakness. So how do we solve the problem then - by also employing yang, but in a very specific way. We use our mind to guide the action of some other part of the body where the opponent has (relatively) no influence on. By definition of Taiji philosophy, we should be yang where the opponent is yin. In Taiji we want our body to have the quality of a ball floating on water (or some other unstable surface). If we push on the ball, and our push is not perfectly through the center, we will lose balance fall to that side right? The ball doesn't have a mind, it doesn't try to change the trouble spot in some way, what is does have area all the qualities of a ball. Actions is always faster than reaction right, if they both need to travel in the same directions. One of the very few ways (this is why most people think Taiji Quan is against common sense, that it can't work) a slower reaction, a smaller force can neutralize a larger force, because it has these qualities which allows it to be touched, but not affected in the manner intended.

Image

Our body is not literally a ball, so we have to behave in ways that emulate the ball. In the example above then, if someone pushes our left upper arm in a straight on path, we ignore that arm mostly, and instead wave our right arm as if to slap the opponent on his left cheek. This is where peng and integration comes in. Remember in the Taiji diagram within yin there's a bit of yang. That yang is peng. Peng is the force you exert to maintain the relationship between the arm being pushed with the rest of the body. To quote a often used phrase on this form - "maintain the structure". A ball cannot be a ball if it just deflates when pressed. At the same time you are integrated. Integration means no single part of our body is isolated. Every part is connected, affected, sharing the load. It means when one part moves, every other part moves. So here when you move your right hand, you are also turning your waist, which in turn turns our your left side, including the hand rotate to the left. In doing so causing his force to miss, solving the problem. Attack and defense at the same time, attack and defensive as parts of one overall motion, that is Taiji.

The interesting thing that happens here is that if you initiate this rotation with the left arm, it will not work, as the opponent will detect the change there. Here's an example that more clearly illustrate this:

grab a steering wheel with both hands at 3 and 9 o'clock, now have someone grab your left wrist, try to push it off the steering wheel by exerting a downward force. First the natural reaction: try to do struggle with that hand directly. Whatever you do, the opponent can detect it and adjust accordingly. If you try to escape by use the left hand to rotate the steering wheel down and to the right, he will either change his force to a different direction or let go immediately. But he will not lose balance. Then the Taiji way, let him grab that 9 o'clock wrist, as he is push down, do just enough to maintain grip with the steering wheel with the 9 o'clock hand, use the right hand to borrow the momentum of his downward force, and circle it back to him by turning the steering wheel toward left. Now your left wrist will leave the position from 9 to 8, or 7, to 6 naturally right. Initially he will not feel any change (your left hand is passive, not appearing to have any force at all, the hand that's generating the force he is not in touch with, so he cannot know): in fact as the wheel is turning, he rightly feels it's working, this is all his doing. But imperceptibly, the angle of contact between his hand and your hand changes, the angle becomes more and more awkward until the motion is nonviable to him, no matter how much additional force he puts in. In this example we're forcing the integration by using a physical wheel, and the strength of material of the steering wheel provide peng. In fighting our body needs to have all the qualities of that wheel. If we're not similarly integrated, waving the right hand only moves the right hand and nothing else, the opponent still wins.

This is how a smaller force can defeat a larger force, not because it can do anything directly against the larger force - but by changing the angle so that the amount of the force is not the key issue, but whether it's going to go through the target in an effective manner. It's imperceptible because a) we are borrowing his force to make this change, so he will think everything is going according to plan until too late. b) we are not trying to change him directly. We are using his force to change a small part of ourselves, and by maintaining an unthinking connection with him, he's going along with us without thinking - first we are "taking a walk" with his force, then he unwittingly takes a detour with ours. And c) the rate of change, not matter how fast or slow, is smooth and even. It's smooth and even because that's the quality of a circle. A circle is by definition a series of points equal distance from the center. As you going through a motion, the change from spot to spot in space is smooth, instead of a jagged line where it's easy to detect a change.

This smoothness is represented by the line between yin and yang half of the Taiji diagram. This is a major concept about change in Taiji the philosophical principle called zhuan huan. Most martial art use the other type - Cha Yi. Cha Yi is like a binary switch, it has only two states, on or off. I'm either here or not here. Zhuan Huan include all the fuzzy, partial, neither nor, has the potential to be anything states in between. This is one major philosophical idea absent from traditional Western philosophy. Taiji is the only one out of three internal martial arts to use Zhuan Huan.

Anyone who has tried to lift a heavy weight in the gym knows this feeling, even when the force is simple (in one plane only), if your change your grip a little bit, a little extra space here or there, a finger or two not quit having solid contact with the bar, the hand a little sweaty, and you cannot do what you want with that weight. When trying to manipulate a heavy object that is free to move in all three planes, even a little thing can foil it. Hence the expression "a four ounces [force] can neutralize a thousand pound [force]". Or when you play golf, the slightest error in the way you grip the club, how you positioned your feet, where your eyes are looking, and cause the ball to go wildly off in the wrong direction. In Chinese we call that "a small deviation that results in error of thousand miles" - this is the danger whenever we use large force, the more powerful the force, more accurate and sure the direction we have to be. Taiji Quan is the art of creating small deviations that results in devastating loses. Those loses are not result of not applying stronger, faster force, but that of "start off doing the right thing, then the situation changed but I didn't notice in time and just kept doing the same thing, which then became the wrong thing to do, and end up hurting myself".

So this is how Taiji works. If you have to consciously think "yield, don't struggle, redirect here", it would always be too slow for real fights. The ball has no consciousness, no strategy, what it has are qualities that are basically impossible to defeat. So while we have to practice slowly, deliberately to acquire these properties, once acquired our actual reactions are fast. They are fast because they are automatic (inherent qualities), because the actual movement is small (just a tiny change in angle of contact makes a huge difference), and they work because opponent doesn't even recognize our change until too late (his force driving all these smooth, small changes). So it's like something happened that cause our body to lose balance, and various parts of all our body just moves instantly on its own to restore it. It's that fast, automatic, natural, and spontaneous (quan wu quan, yi wu yi).

"Water is the softest substance in the world, yet it can overcome the ultimate in hardness. Every man knows this, yet who knows how to implement it?" - Laozi

Daoism is an unique product of Chinese thought, a set of beliefs about how the world/nature operated that are deeply ingrained people's beliefs. People saw in properities of water manifestation of high level principles, they strove to be in accordance with Dao in everything they do. In martial art, the 3 internal schools each found ways to apply aspects of Daoist ideas in their skills: "Taiji kong dong" (taiji makes the contact point empty), "Ba gua bian doing" (Ba Gua changes the contact point), "Xing yi heng dong" (Xing yi exerts a crossing force on the contact point). The three internal martial arts are also the only ones with the expressed goal of not just being effective (can we win fights with it), but also in the most efficient manner (how little of our own force do we need to use, in turn how many and how much bigger the opponents can be bring down...).

Daoism is amongst the most counter-intuitive and radical of philosophies - solid is not as good as empty, wisdom is foolishness, softness can overcome strengh, etc. These ideas permeate every aspect of Chinese culture, giving native speakers a huge advantage when it comes to understanding and practicing the skills. For people not exposed all of that, if they try to understand and practice these martial art based on conventional wisdom (more is always better than less) of their own culture, their system of logic (binary instead of xuan), and their common sense/everyday experience (watching popular spectator sports where the goals are to be "Faster, Higher, Stronger"), they can easily miss the mark completely. Add on top of that our increasing distance from nature - how many of us do complex manual labor every day, how many of us have the everyday experience of working on complex mechanical devices, struggling with hard to reach parts that we cannot manipulate no matter how much we try to force it...? Hence the common phenomenon of practicing internal martial art like external martial art. These postures we can all do with speed and power to win fights. But if real Taiji quan skill is what we're chasing after, we need to know first what it is, the radical philosophy it's based on. If we don't have that type of fundamental understanding, then we're liable to spending most of our time chasing the wrong things (ex. biggest fajin), leading us further and further away from deeper understandings of Dao.
Last edited by Wuyizidi on Thu Jan 08, 2015 10:51 pm, edited 61 times in total.
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Re: tai chi chuan definitions

Postby D_Glenn on Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:03 pm

Taiji is essentially the Yin Yang symbol - a large circle of Yang revolving around a large circle of Yin, but within the large circle of Yang is a smaller circle of Yin, and vice versa.

But this is only a two-dimensional drawing of a real physical world three-dimensional object.

So a real world example is like a coin, one side is Yang, the other side is Yin. A single-sided coin can't exist in the real world, so one side of the coin can't exist without the other side, so there is Yang within Yin, Yin within Yang.

Take the coin and spin it like a top on a table, to represent the constant conversion or transformation from Yang to Yin, from Yin to Yang.

At first the coin is spinning but will be moving randomly and chaotically around the table until it finds the perfect balance where it is smoothly 'Transforming' (Zhuanhuan) and converting from one to the other and stays spinning in one single spot. This is 'Taiji'... From -- viewtopic.php?f=3&t=21715&start=59

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Re: tai chi chuan definitions

Postby Bao on Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:10 am

Wuyizidi wrote: But if real Taiji quan skill is what we're chasing after, we need to know first what it is, the radical philosophy it's based on. If we don't have that type of fundamental understanding, then we're liable to spending most of our time chasing the wrong things ...


This is something I personally agree very much with. The problem for western people is that you really need to spend a whole lot more on intellectualizing than many chinese need. So much of the Tai Chi philosophy comes very natural for chinese because it's there in their culture. When I discuss things with my wife, for example, or when she tests exercises or earlier when she followed me to meet my teacher, it has struck me how natural everything seems for her. She does things very good and it comes very natural because she understand these things from her culture. But we must bridge this gap between "understanding" and "doing". Otherwise, we might, yes, focus on the wrong things and go further in the wrong direction.

Thus I have a good understanding of what Marteen said:
MaartenSFS wrote:No master I've met over here theorises this much... ::)


They really don't need to theorize much for themselves because most of them have it naturally from their culture. But some teachers forget that many of us need the extra boost of theory "to get it". But then of course, it's all pointless if the theory doesn't become practical practice or at least leads our practice in to the right path.
Last edited by Bao on Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: tai chi chuan definitions

Postby windwalker on Fri Jan 09, 2015 6:57 am

Bao wrote:
Wuyizidi wrote: But if real Taiji quan skill is what we're chasing after, we need to know first what it is, the radical philosophy it's based on. If we don't have that type of fundamental understanding, then we're liable to spending most of our time chasing the wrong things ...


This is something I personally agree very much with. The problem for western people is that you really need to spend a whole lot more on intellectualizing than many chinese need. So much of the Tai Chi philosophy comes very natural for chinese because it's there in their culture. When I discuss things with my wife, for example, or when she tests exercises or earlier when she followed me to meet my teacher, it has struck me how natural everything seems for her. She does things very good and it comes very natural because she understand these things from her culture. But we must bridge this gap between "understanding" and "doing". Otherwise, we might, yes, focus on the wrong things and go further in the wrong direction.

Thus I have a good understanding of what Marteen said:
MaartenSFS wrote:No master I've met over here theorises this much... ::)


They really don't need to theorize much for themselves because most of them have it naturally from their culture. But some teachers forget that many of us need the extra boost of theory "to get it". But then of course, it's all pointless if the theory doesn't become practical practice or at least leads our practice in to the right path.

+1 ;)

my own teacher once said "I'm not a taiji theorist, I am a taiji practitioner"
well this may sound good, as you've pointed out, the Chinese grow up with much of the ideas and understanding in their culture.
No one has to explain, qi, yi, shen or many of the other concepts they'er taken as a given, allowing more time to practice, and practice.

once I brought a small book in English and Chinese on taiji principles thinking that this would be a good way to ask questions which he always encouraged. He laughed and said this will make you crazy, and some of it is not right for this practice. He gave it back to me. His way of answering most questions was to allow one to feel it.

one winter day, he said "I will teach you the way I learned" he had me attack him any way I wanted and he would toss me many yards back each time.
made for a very long, cold day. :-\

when something was said to be understood, one had to be able to do it, not talk about about or show it.

a very good write up by "Wuyizidi" with good comments from other posters. Very much enjoy reading them.

Wuyizidi wrote:
But if real Taiji quan skill is what we're chasing after, we need to know first what it is, the radical philosophy it's based on. If we don't have that type of fundamental understanding, then we're liable to spending most of our time chasing the wrong things ...


In China, one may win at say something like pushhands or other engagements, IME its not really respected unless it corresponds to the art or method practiced.
taiji, is very counter intuitive to most other methods or practices, one might conclude that wining a engagement, might prove that one has grasped it, and find out later that the methods used or practiced do not really fit in with the taiji concepts.

This thread is a good example of this

"Understanding ma yu liang push hands"
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=22799#p382479
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Jan 09, 2015 7:15 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: tai chi chuan definitions

Postby Wuyizidi on Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:33 pm

It's like Bao said: recent I actually started sit down and seriously read Yi Jing - it's just astounding how many of the everyday phrases and ideas comes from there. It's not like when we practice we are spouting Taiji Classiscs all the time. And to be honest to teach someone taiji, we don't really need to use these technical terms from philosophy either. It's just these terms exist as everyday words for us already, they are pack with layers of meaning, so they serve as very useful shorthands. The problem comes when you talk to people who were not exposed to these philosophical concepts, then you need to do all these detailed explanations.

Forgot something: I know we use the example of defense all the time to explain where the mind should be, of course it's the same for offensive too. There's another thread here about single whip. I couldn't find the original thread on why people are having difficulty with it, so I will just relate my own experience:

Single whip is one of the oldest recorded skills in Chinese martial art. It's one of the 32 empty hand skills Qi Jiguang used to train his troops. Now if it's something used to train the average foot solider, you know it will fit Qi Jiguang's skill selection criteria of "easy to teach, easy to learn, and easy to use". Anything martial art skill that cannot be taught and learned in 100 days he did not use. It's one of the most common application idea in fighting - when you find yourself positioned to the side and slightly behind the opponent, the direction he is weakest in terms of support is the line exactly perpendicular to the line connecting his feet, so throw him in that direction. And since we bend forward much easier than backwards, we throw him backwards. This is one of the most common techniques in all of Chinese martial art, for example it's part of Hua Quan, where much of modern competition Long Fist come from.

When I first tried it, I find it anything but easy. I'm already side by side with opponent, I started out with palm facing away from his body, so when I start the upward push against his side, it's a very awkward position - in everyday life if we need to move an 150 pound weight we don't stand side to side to it and push with one arm that way. So I find myself getting stuck at the beginning of the movement, with side of my forearm jammed against his side. He is unmovable, I'm only using my arm strength.

When I asked my teacher this, he said where do you feel hard, I told him where it is. Hard means at that point two opposing forces are directly against each other. He told me that's because my mind is on my forearm. I'm using my natural response: I need to move this weight, so I'm focusing on point of contact. Instead, he instructed me to have this mental imagery: imagine there's a person standing behind your opponent just like you, but on the other side of opponent, and he has one hand high up (further away from you and above opponent's temple), and you just want to reach it as if to high five that person. Don't worry about your opponent, pretend he doesn't even exist, you just want to reach up in a big arc and touch that high point.

This time when I did it, I did not feel any resistance at the opponent's side. He did not resist me there because he did not feel an active force there. Yes my forearm, then upper arm still touched him there and moved him there, but those parts moved naturally as result of my hand's reaching motion. It's amazing how easy this technique is when you have the correct mental imagery: a reach for yourself rather a push against an opponent. As students of internal martial art we spend a lot of time not sure if we're even doing the right thing, a lot of times wondering if we will ever get it. This is one techniques where even beginners get to feel what correct taiji skill should be like. When you did that, you just what to go "whoa, I know Tai Chi!"

Again, this is one of the criteria we can use to judge if it's real taiji skill. When I'm pushing with my teacher and gets thrown, it's never a case of of I'm doing the right thing but not with enough power. It's always in the case I'm attacking I did not realize until too late things changed so I'm doing the wrong thing, so doing the wrong thing harder (attacking harder to an empty spot) is not going to get me out, or in the case of attack, I didn't realize until too late where his force is having an effect on me. When I'm attacked I never felt like I'm meeting his force head on, that I could've used more force to win, it's always he's attacking a place I have 0 resistance. That I am helpless. This is an important feeling - the effortlessness. High level throws looks great because the defender has no force where the attacking force is, either he is static (as in single whip) or worse, he was already going backward, and a force is added to that, but at an even more awkward angle, so he cannot recover. This is the only way we can throw someone, making them take 10, 20 steps back.

One more detail: it's called single whip because it's a whipping motion, you do this big arc, then at the end you snap back in a small circle like you're cracking the whip. I don't know how to explain the physics of this, but I have practiced this a lot with a 30 ft long battle rope with another person holding the other end, when I snap, the waves' amplitude and frequency are different, the power a lot stronger, and the other person cannot hold on to it (he gets pulled suddenly to the opposite direction toward me at the end).

By Qi Jiguang's time, many of the advanced ideas that made internal martial art skills possible are floating around, it feels like around that time it finally reached a critical mass, and the leap was made. I wouldn't be surprised single whip is one of those inspirations.

Again, the same Taiji principle applied: when attacked, put your mind (yang) away from the trouble point, move that point to solve the problem at trouble point. When attacking, the point of intention (chopping boards in karate, follow up in tennis) and point of contact are separate things, focus are something else, and the force will act on the contact point in the correct and maximized manner. This is what is meant by "yong yi but yong li" - use intention, not raw force. It's not we are not using force, but we use it naturally/indirectly by employing a trick of the mind.

Another example of putting the mind in a different place in attack is kao. When I first tried it my mind was on the attacking shoulder, trying to guide it. Of course it's so much more awkward guiding shoulders than guiding the hand, especially when you're trying to strike with back of the shoulder. However, when instructed to look backwards toward the other hand, and put the mind on opposite hand openning, the kao motion gets done naturally. Similarly, I remember my Baji teacher reminding me all the time: when punching foward, think front and back hand are connected by a rope looped around a pulley in front of you, so that when one hand moves forward,the other hand moves back naturally, and vice versa. When punching, use 60% power to pull back and only 40% to punch forward. Since your arms are connected through the torso, pulling back on one side, rotating it, adds power to the forward motion on the other...

This is what we mean by skill. As in when we're doing some manual task, we ask "can this be accomplished in a more skillful manner?" By skill we mean a trick, a clever shortcut that tricks the body in doing the right thing naturally, using less physical and or mental effort. In Chinese this concept of short cut/trick/key point, sense of ease is more obvious in the words we use for skill/technique. This is the key in all Chinese martial art (ex in Shuai Jiao instead of "shift weight, change direction", people use "bian liang" - changing face's direction). In Chinese we often say so and so fell for that skill/technique. A skill is supposed to be a clever trap for the ignorant/unaware. Today the language used in describing movements are supposedly more scientifically precise and systematic, like relax shoulder, drop elbow etc. Those are actually goals, not the means. So how do we relax? Traditional teachers often don't just say relax this, align that, they will the same plain, simple language that farmers use to teach someone how to carry 200 pound weight on the back of one shoulder, put your mind here, think this, picture that, and the corresponding body parts naturally do the right thing.

So these days when some technique is not working, one of the first questions I ask my teacher is "where should we put our mind here?"
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Re: tai chi chuan definitions

Postby LaoDan on Tue Jan 13, 2015 9:12 am

Wuyizidi,

Thanks a lot for presenting your definition of Taijiquan. I use a lot of the same explanations that you do, but since I also study ILiqChuan I do not know how much that art colors my explanations of TJQ, so it is nice to see someone else using similar examples. So, neither fight nor flight; the S-curve dividing the taiji ‘double-fish’ diagram; the ball floating on water; etc. frequently are used by me when explaining TJQ. While I would add some clarifications for my students, they are relatively minor and probably not worth mentioning here (I do not want to detract from what I consider to be an excellent post). However, I did want to add somewhat to one thing that you mentioned.

You gave a nice example of the sphere in TJQ, specifically, one arm receiving the force from the opponent while the other arm issues energy to the opponent. Since I have come across many practitioners who view this concept primarily as being one sphere that encompasses the entire body, I wanted to point out that there are many spheres of many sizes that actually come into play. It is smaller spheres that allow someone to receive energy from an opponent at the wrist, for example, and simultaneously attack them with the elbow or shoulder of that same arm. It is also smaller spheres that are used in numerous joint locking (Liejin) applications [as well as the steering wheel example that you gave]. Thus, I explain this concept using the following illustration (it shows circles but can be extrapolated to being spheres):

Image

The point of contact with an opponent/partner would be at the point where all of the circles/spheres contact each other (near the bottom of the above figure). For me, each point of contact with an opponent/partner would have its own spheres that can be utilized individually, or if desired used in a unified manner connecting two or more contact points (using spheres for each contact point that overlap each other – or using a sphere that has both contact points on the same sphere’s circumference).

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Re: tai chi chuan definitions

Postby Wuyizidi on Tue Jan 13, 2015 11:44 am

Dan, you're right I was over simplifying. In that example left and right arm are part of one sphere. In real life it's many, one overall - and many other smaller ones. The more circles there are in our response, the harder for the opponent to adjust. And each part of the body doesn't have to be a full sphere, they can be partial, hence terms like bow (arc really). Here's a detailed article my teacher wrote about all of that - a translation and explanation of Yang family classic Random Circle Formulas: http://www.ycgf.org/Articles/RandomCirc ... les_1.html
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Re: tai chi chuan definitions

Postby LaoDan on Tue Jan 13, 2015 11:57 am

Zhang Yun is probably my favorite author on TJQ theory/principles, so it is perhaps not surprising that I also like what you write.

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Re: tai chi chuan definitions

Postby Wuyizidi on Tue Jan 13, 2015 2:09 pm

LaoDan wrote:Zhang Yun is probably my favorite author on TJQ theory/principles, so it is perhaps not surprising that I also like what you write.

Dan


Thank you.

Zhang laoshi comes from a very rigorous western philosophy & science background, and his parents are involved in education. So he's not afraid to question everything, he's one of 2 or 3 people who can openly question/argue with Master Wang Peisheng. One of the biggest problems with traditional teaching of craftsmanship, not just martial art, is this general lack of concern whether students will get the knowledge or not. So he's always thinking about what is the best way for people to understand the material, and in the shortest time possible.

I use this forum to examine my own understanding of the material. So I don't throw massive quotes at people, I don't parrot my teacher. I only write what I can understand from my own practice, in my own words. This is why my posts tend to be long and overly wordy, as everything is not neatly organized and completely clear yet. It's a work in progress, the understanding is no where near the level of completeness and accuracy of my teacher's.
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Re: tai chi chuan definitions

Postby bruce on Tue Jan 13, 2015 5:03 pm

Wuyizidi,

you write very well, i enjoyed reading your comments. thank you.
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Re: tai chi chuan definitions

Postby GrahamB on Wed Jan 14, 2015 3:17 am

Wuyizidi wrote:One more detail: it's called single whip because it's a whipping motion, you do this big arc, then at the end you snap back in a small circle like you're cracking the whip. I don't know how to explain the physics of this, but I have practiced this a lot with a 30 ft long battle rope with another person holding the other end, when I snap, the waves' amplitude and frequency are different, the power a lot stronger, and the other person cannot hold on to it (he gets pulled suddenly to the opposite direction toward me at the end).


I still don't think this is true - I think the 'whip' being referred to is an inflexible staff. Closest English correspondence would be a riding crop. There are lots of forms for a weapon called a "whip" in CMA and they're all some sort of short staff/stick.

e.g. 1930 Tiger Tail Whip vs. Spear by Jiang Rong Qiao
http://www.plumpub.com/sales/chinese/ch ... 9.htm#C046

Image

Of course, that doesn't change anything about the mechanics of the application you are describing - you do, indeed, whip back. But I don't think the connection to the name is the one you imply.
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Re: tai chi chuan definitions

Postby Wuyizidi on Tue Jan 20, 2015 1:30 pm

GrahamB wrote:
Wuyizidi wrote:One more detail: it's called single whip because it's a whipping motion, you do this big arc, then at the end you snap back in a small circle like you're cracking the whip. I don't know how to explain the physics of this, but I have practiced this a lot with a 30 ft long battle rope with another person holding the other end, when I snap, the waves' amplitude and frequency are different, the power a lot stronger, and the other person cannot hold on to it (he gets pulled suddenly to the opposite direction toward me at the end).


I still don't think this is true - I think the 'whip' being referred to is an inflexible staff. Closest English correspondence would be a riding crop. There are lots of forms for a weapon called a "whip" in CMA and they're all some sort of short staff/stick.

e.g. 1930 Tiger Tail Whip vs. Spear by Jiang Rong Qiao
http://www.plumpub.com/sales/chinese/ch ... 9.htm#C046

Image

Of course, that doesn't change anything about the mechanics of the application you are describing - you do, indeed, whip back. But I don't think the connection to the name is the one you imply.


The most popular Chinese Whip is really a truncheon

鞭 (bian) means whip in Chinese. It's one of the earliest weapons, based on records they were already very popular in the Spring Autumn Warring States period. At that time Bian were classified as hard or soft. Hard bian were made of copper or iron, the soft one leather. Even when it's metal, it can be flexible or inflexible.

Image

Image

In Chinese martial art, when we use the word bian when discussing weapon, most of the time we're talking about hard inflexible bian, as that is the most popular type on the battlefield. Many famous warriors used it, mostly for striking opponents off the horse when passing close by. Later another simplified version (originally called 简 - simple, simplified) of hard bian became popular, it's called 锏 (jian), truncheon. The major difference being bian is normally round or 6 sided, jian is 4 sided.

Image

Logically the hard bian should be classified as truncheon, but because in China Bian came first, in China truncheon gets classified under (hard) whip. In China when an average person hears the word bian, he would think the soft flexible kind, but when a martial artists talk about whip, they mean the hard inflexible kind, as the soft ones are not commonly used. So this is one source of confusion.

Single Whip is a verb, not a noun

Another source is something that translators often neglect to state explicitly for non-native speaker. In Chinese, a word like bian can be used as 1) verb, 2) noun referring to technique, or 3) noun referring to the physical weapon itself. We can use the word 鞭 as verb to mean we're whipping someone. Or when we say Tiger Tail Whip, we can refer to the form/postures - collection of techniques for using hard bian, or the weapon itself.

Most bian are segmented so no matter which part of its body makes contact, the pressure felt is multiplied by one of the bulges. This basic design is called bamboo segment bian, or if you want to make it sound more martial /intimidating, something like QiLin Bian or Hu Wei (tiger tail) Bian. Tiger tail is of course soft and flexible, As Jiang Roungjiao pointed out here, it references the ringed tail appearance. So there's multiple source of confusion in this one name here.

As if to make things more confusing, jian are usually shorter than bian, and therefore usually used in pairs, whereas bian is used alone. When we talk about single whip, a common variation is double whip (whipping with two bian), where both arms are swung in the same direction, as you often would with two jian, but here the movement are those of soft whip.

Lost in Translation

So this is a perfect example of lost in translation, when we translate, even if the word has a exact counterpart in the second language, we need to be aware of the evolution of those concept in both cultures to make sure all the underlying meanings and assumptions are the same. Otherwise why would a non-native speaker dig through all of this on his own for such a simple , common word?!
Last edited by Wuyizidi on Tue Jan 20, 2015 2:17 pm, edited 14 times in total.
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