How Bruce Lee/Kung Fu influences MMA

[allen2saint]

Great point.

[Wanderingdragon]

Welp ! no bagua or hung gar guys with Joe Rogan balls I guess. I don't do either but I know of both, and in either clip their form nor training was non-existant, Respect BT for his enthusiasm but he's a boxer, who knows some bagua technique.

[bruce]

these are examples of what joe rogan was referring to: the hung gar guy was well after joe made the comments and the bagua guy was before.
there are many other videos available.

hung gar master sharif bey fighting ma guy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dY1jWVN7OIU

maoshan bagua guy fighting 52 blocks guy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NB44UWjySdQ

the above videos illustrate exactly what joe rogan was saying. if you search the training method videos from both guys and compare how they actually fought i think it totally backs up what joe rogan is saying and puts into context what joe rogan is talking about.

With the many "bagua" practitioners on this site one would think that some would say something
or help to clarify whether what was shown to be bagua by some one who teaches it, was it actually the way the style was used or not.

Not whether he lost, or won. Is it the way the style was or is supposed to be employed/used?

The content in these 2 videos compared with the practice videos are what joe rogan is addressing.
What is your opinion of the content?

My opinion is he tried to use "bagua" but failed. If you watch his for, and practice drill they are ok but they did not translate to his "fights" I think he was not using it as designed.

[Wanderingdragon]

Both clips demonstrate the lack of understanding most traditional forms players have of the feet, and how the top and bottom are connected.

[windwalker]

these are examples of what joe rogan was referring to: the hung gar guy was well after joe made the comments and the bagua guy was before.
there are many other videos available.

hung gar master sharif bey fighting ma guy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dY1jWVN7OIU

maoshan bagua guy fighting 52 blocks guy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NB44UWjySdQ

the above videos illustrate exactly what joe rogan was saying. if you search the training method videos from both guys and compare how they actually fought i think it totally backs up what joe rogan is saying and puts into context what joe rogan is talking about.

With the many "bagua" practitioners on this site one would think that some would say something
or help to clarify whether what was shown to be bagua by some one who teaches it, was it actually the way the style was used or not.

Not whether he lost, or won. Is it the way the style was or is supposed to be employed/used?

The content in these 2 videos compared with the practice videos are what joe rogan is addressing.
What is your opinion of the content?

My opinion is he tried to use "bagua" but failed. If you watch his for, and practice drill they are ok but they did not translate to his "fights" I think he was not using it as designed.

There are many here who say either they or their teachers are noted for "bagua"
waiting for them to either show or say whether that was how the style they say they practice is used, as in this thread shows.
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=22884

what was shown received good reviews. Is this the way its used?

[bruce]

Windwalker,

I think the stuff in the the video you linked looks nice and seems to be practical methods that follow what I think are the principals of the art.

What was your question?

[windwalker]

Is this the way its used?

It was asked to those that practice the art here, relative to the clips you posted
showing another "bagua" practitioner who also many videos, showing what you noted in the other clips

stuff in the the video you linked looks nice and seems to be practical methods that follow what I think are the principals of the art.

much of the same things that you noted.

The question still stands to those who practice the art, what happened in the clip posted with the " 52blocks" is it reflective of the art, if not why not, are there examples of the art being used in real time showing distinctive characteristics of the style in use ?

[D_Glenn]

The style of Bagua that I practice when actually used it looks like a normal fight.

The problem is that people think the standing postures (zhan zhuang / xing zhuang) should be apparent or used as the fighting/ guard stance but they're just 'Yi Jin Jing' (tendon myofascia changing) postures.

The other issue is that in the Dragon system it's actually a system of 'Southern hands & Northern legs' and specifically requires the use of 'Chayi' when changing, instead of using 'Zhuanhuan', but it's a type of deception as the Zhuanhuan power is hidden inside and it looks like the MMA guys who like to throw and grapple and use open palms.

If you know the actual purposes of traditional training practices then you won't be trying to hammer a square peg into a round hole. Fighting is fighting.

.

[windwalker]

The style of Bagua that I practice when actually used it looks like a normal fight.

The problem is that people think the standing postures (zhan zhuang / xing zhuang) should be apparent or used as the fighting/ guard stance but they're just 'Yi Jin Jing' (tendon myofascia changing) postures.

The other issue is that in the Dragon system it's actually a system of 'Southern hands & Northern legs' and specifically requires the use of 'Chayi' when changing, instead of using 'Zhuanhuan', but it's a type of deception as the Zhuanhuan power is hidden inside and it looks like the MMA guys who like to throw and grapple and use open palms.

If you know the actual purposes of traditional training practices then you won't be trying to hammer a square peg into a round hole. Fighting is fighting.

.

Well, I really dont agree and it dosnt seem very logical to me to practice something and then in "use" suddenly it looks like anything else ie "fighting is fighting"
why not just practice "fighting"

I know those who's practices are very functional, and have used for example "lama hop gar" it looks like what is practiced. Its practiced in such a way that its really not possible to move or do anything else, the movements are pretty much burned in...Same with mantis, and other styles.

Essentially what some seem to be saying is that "52blocks" for example looks like, is practiced pretty much the way its used.
Some how CMA although it has nice theories and apps is not used in the way its practiced nor looks anything like the practice.
A boxer, in a "fight" still looks like a boxer, in the ring or out...

My experience has been, either it works or not, if not practice until it does.

others may find different.

If you know the actual purposes of traditional training practices then you won't be trying to hammer a square peg into a round hole. Fighting is fighting.

Ok,,, is what, is shown in the "52blocks" clip indicative of "traditional training practices"

[Ba-men]

Well, I really dont agree and it dosnt seem very logical to me to practice something and then in "use" suddenly it looks like anything else ie "fighting is fighting"
why not just practice "fighting"

I know those who's practices are very functional, and have used for example "lama hop gar" it looks like what is practiced. Its practiced in such a way that its really not possible to move or do anything else, the movements are pretty much burned in...Same with mantis, and other styles.

Essentially what some seem to be saying is that "52blocks" for example looks like, is practiced pretty much the way its used.
Some how CMA although it has nice theories and apps is not used in the way its practiced nor looks anything like the practice.
A boxer, in a "fight" still looks like a boxer, in the ring or out...

My experience has been, either it works or not, if not practice until it does.

others may find different.

+1

It's not something unattainable.. one just has to practice it under the "correct" methods.

Done in real time depending on the skill of the opponent... is dependent on how crisp and clean.

Subject what your doing to resistance, pressure & criticism. More importantly subject what your doing to the norms of what your likely to experience. Yea practice bagua against another bagua practitioner... But are you likely to encounter a rouge bagua guy giving you the stink eye "thinking you're eye humping his girl"? Or some meat-head at the local watering hole, still reliving his high school days ... who's single you out as his next punk bitch to bully? The meat-head gonna know how to box and might even be good at it.

IMO coping in real time with a boxer should be the bar level for your TCMA. Most of what we do is stand up. Most relevant in today's world as far as self defense goes is mostly based in stand up. Most of what your likely to encounter is going to be stand up based! (and 99% grounded in Western boxing fundamentals.... )

TCMA has all the ingredients to excel under "correct methods" without altering it... (throw in some ground game and ya got some nice skill sets)

[D_Glenn]

I guess you guys just have a different idea of BGZ then I do.

The most important rule of our system is that Function is more important than style. It should not look like a Shaw Brothers Kung Fu movie.



.

[Bao]

Its practiced in such a way that its really not possible to move or do anything else, the movements are pretty much burned in...Same with mantis, and other styles.

"Burned in". That's a very nice way to put it. I like that.

One thing is of course if you want to "hide" your shenfa or don't want to do too large movements. But I think that if you really drill a certain shenfa, it would be almost impossible to move and act like a normal fighter.

It's very funny, but when I was 18, my theatre class took on juggling. I thought I would do great and be the fastest learner. But it was very much the opposite around. I could not move my arms separately from the body. I moved my arms from my hips and waist and I didn't understand what was wrong, because the juggling balls flew far away from each other. A few years later I started practicing Xing Yi and I started to understand to move my arms separately from the body again.

Similar should happen when you fight. If you have taught yourself to be relaxed when you strike, you strike relaxed. If you know and have practiced a lot on how to move the arms from middle of the body, you will automatically strike with whole body movement. It's not like that a developed Shenfa is something you need to "switch on" when you need it, but IME, it's really something that can be very hard to "switch off".

[windwalker]

it would be almost impossible to move and act like a normal fighter.

I would say "un trained" which we could call natural or instinctive.
The point being is that ones art, should be ingrained enough so that it is natural, this business about looking or acting like a " Shaw Brothers Kung Fu movie" bellies the fact that in almost any other art, judo, bjj, boxing ect. what is practice is pretty much the way it looks and is used under pressure.

CMA styles at least IME, are quite different from each other, it takes someone really quite capable in one of them to mix and match,,,,not many people around these days that can do it IMO.

I feel what often happens is that "fighting looks like fighting" often means that ones art is not ingrained enough.
Any one who has worked with someone who used to box, or do some other art where it gets pressure tested knows how hard it is to build new reactions.
In some cases its not possible.

This requirement often means that if ones practice is not quite correct, and its not caught in time, often its quite hard to change......
A deeper discussion might be one that speaks to the relativity of CMA compared to the new events, cross training, and skill level.

"Bruce Lee" basically posed the same question and addressed it in his own way, becoming quite famous in the process.
It was his question to himself that some use as an answer for not achieving what ever style studied skill skill sets.

Only achieving partial skill sets, feeling they understand the depths of the art they study.

There are boxing gyms, and there are Boxing gyms.
one will teach anyone, the other it depends if one can make it through the training whether they will train someone or not.

[Ba-men]

When A Boxer "boxes" he goes into the ring and looks like when he punches the heavy bag or shadow boxes.

When a Jujitsuka or Judoka goes out and randori (i.e. rolls) they look like what they do when they practice their forms. (all those one steps/single applications trained over and over then linked are a constructs of a form)

When a fencer fence's they look like all those fencing forms they practice (again... one steps/single applications)

Grecco Roman, Free style & Sumo wrestlers when they wrestle: they look like the techniques they practice over and over.

Pro sport athletes (NFL football, FIFA football, NBA, NHL , Rugby etc when they compete they look like what they do in practice.

Musicians when they improvise they draw from the music they have practiced. i.e. Classical violinist when improvising draw from classical music not country and they certainly will improvise using violin technique not guitar technique!

All forms of human endeavor .... skill is displayed by how good one is at what they practice.

So... practicing said art "somewhere" with "someone" ... and what they train and teach is somehow different that what they do..?

[b]If you don't look like what you practice when stressed... then you ARE NOT doing what you practice! Thinking there is a reason for this other than a lack of internalizing what your doing is a false premise. It's an easy fix. Acknowledge it, back up and begin again where you lost it. To many that would mean they would have to admit to themselves and others they are not really all that skilled at what they are doing. Ego is a bitch!

Be willing to stress yourself physically and mentally ... it's where many who practice TMCA go wrong. They don't. What's that old saying? Invest in loss! yea that's it.

[D_Glenn]

The key sentence in my post was "The style of Bagua that I practice...", which as far as I can tell from youtube clips is very, very different then the style that Ben Hill practices.

The style I practice is really simplistic in comparison. A lot of drilling of single strikes, then drilling combinations of 3 strikes. So what I drill / ingrain / burn into my mind and body is what I use in a fight.

If someone only sees my solo practice then they don't really know where my intention is, so they most likely imagine a radical application of the movements as they don't know how it's supposed to work. But the actual application is not really different from what occurs in a normal fight. How everything is applied is one of the biggest secrets of my style of Baguazhang.

Other styles of Baguazhang, IMO seem to have lost the way that it's applied and attempt to use the radical ideas that they dream up. Which doesn't really work in an actual fight.

So yeah. I've been preaching about the drilling, internalizing of the movements of the whole body via drilling strikes, even using 'Fajin' in every strike, until you know and can use it in an actual fight. I can dig up about 3000 old posts of mine where I've talked about this very thing if necessary?

***
Windtalker, note that Baguazhang and Xingyiquan, unlike older systems like mantis, borrow the Xing rather then the Xiang of the animal. So the animals in BGZ and XYQ don't really look like the animal they're borrowing they just borrow the idea of how the animal fights.


.