New article by Yang Hai: Hard force and soft force in Xingyi

[Felipe Bidó]

Yes, Mr. Fong, you're right. The speed should be quick, like avoiding an attack/ advancing to attack.

[Strange]

"Traditionally, there have been so many masters that emphasized this stage of practice that some masters such as Shang Yuxiang, even said that he would practice hard force 30 years more if he could live longer."

this is what i heard also. and WXZ does not have a problem with Shang's force - Wang told his student Shang's bamboo forest (northerner speak for gongli) is like a large flower pot; ours is only like a rice bowl.

i think some ppl like to say "soft"...like some kind of martial name-dropping... to tell other ppl they are at an advance level or something heh. i think i do not need to say here that the test of the real is an exchange of fist.

thks.

[Toby]

I like this thread much more than the "Relaxation" thread . I'm definitely doing the hard stage. My teacher did it for at least 10 years, I've been doing it for a few. Nice article and a POV that I don't often see here on ef.

[nianfong]

you'll find that us xingyi types are usually less about talk, more about action
the taiji guys like to talk. a lot. and choose window treatments.

[GrahamB]

you'll find that us xingyi types are usually less about talk, more about action
the taiji guys like to talk. a lot. and choose window treatments.

I think that used to be the case. Sadly these days there's as much tomfoolery about lineage and the angle of your back toes when your do a pi quan as there is in any Tai-chi-hugging thread here on empty flower. XingYi is definitely going the way of Tai Chi....

[Inner_man]

Totally agree with you GrahanB - I think theres been a fatal over emphasis (and mis interpretation) of the soft in all the IMA that stems from the hippy-brigade. There are still people who genuinely believe that ANY muscular exertion at all is EXTERNAL gong fu and they refuse to train in lower stances and the sort.

Classic wannabes and half taught self masters going off on tangents and training future students with really very little depth behind them. I dont believe this is restricted to non-chinese either from my experiences in Taiwan and China

[Inner_man]

BTW it was good read too

[Pandrews1982]

I liked the article, again I've heard this from my own teacher and other sources, I think that if you are training seriously you'll be told about this kind of thing anyway. But I think it is good Sifu Yang is making this kind of information public too. I think people should be more open about Xing yi in general. But I do agree with Graham that increasingly there are silly arguements over trivial matters too.

To explain a little of what I think and maybe answer some of Bao's questions.

When you begin training in Xing Yi, usually with standing pile exercises such as san-ti and also basic drills such as Wu Xing Quan the emphasis is all on structure, physical shape, alignment, maintaining integrity. This is essentially conditioning the outer to allow the inner to work better later. If you think of qi and jin like water in a hose then if you step on the hose or the hose has a kink in it the water slows down or stops. Its all about making the hose kink free before you can turn on the water. If you've got a tidal wave of internal energy but can't send it down the hose then the other guy feels nothing. But even if you don't have lots of internal energy you can still slap the guy with the hose and it will hurt them In context, a guy with a spear if they are really good can send jin down the spear to the tip and tear through someone's armour, a guy with no internal energy can stand with the spear in a strong structure and still send it through someone, no qi/jin required. You can fight using no internal energy with Xing yi, in most situations you probably don't even need it anyway, but when you do learn it your effectiveness increases. An external guy can still beat an internal guy though, it doesn't matter how much qi/jin you can generate if you don't also have strategy, position, timing etc.

But don't confuse this stage of training to be entirely "external" the strategy and principles of Xing Yi at this level is still internal based, i.e. no force vs force, use of similtaneous attack and defense, every action can be modified to the situation, keeping centred and relaxed etc. it is just that this part of training lacks the use of what people would call internal power. In another way if you look at the 6 harmonies, the 3 internal are not emphasised until the 3 external are proficient so xin, yi, and qi are put on the back burner until the body mechanics and alignment are good enough.

Personally I feel that "hard" is not necessarily the right word to use, "obvious" is a better word as you are looking to create an obviously robust structure first, a vessel to contain internal energy. My training is still very much at this obvious level but i still practice relaxation and body awareness (in fact body awareness is a big part of this level of training).

The terms ming, an and hua are just general categories, you find that they overlap considerably and some people may learn an jing level concepts very early whilst still training ming jing. Often, as in my own case, you are not told this is ming, this is an, you just do what your teacher tells you is necessary for your level of ability and understanding. I was not told anything much at all abotu qi or jin for my first 3 years of training and since then have only been drip fed small amounts with the onus on trying to work things out for myself.

I think that certain schools do things differently, I know that some Yi Quan schools spend years on standing pile exercises while others focus lots on shili which is more about internal work. Xing Yi there is a progression, develop the base using Wu Xing and associated practice, you learn to use strategy and energy using She er xing and related practice, and then you fight which is real Xing Yi.

In terms of transition to the more internal work, I'm beginning this now, it is hard work but i'm not "re-learning" anything, some things do get discarded but in fact you build upon the skills you've already gained and refine them.

I know from doing a bit of tai chi that they often do things a little differently, but there is still a progression in the tai chi form, at first you learn the movements, then make sure they are correct, then add in some roundness, then the continuous movement, and then later things like body lightness etc. It seems to me at least that in tai chi there is more freedom of expression and a lack of structure at the expense of learning more about energy and movement when you first start and then you slowly add the discipline and structure. In Xing Yi you kind of do things the opposite way around learn the discipline and technique first and slowly loosen the reigns so that you keep that discipline but can apply it freely. The end result is to get to a very similar place but the methods are slightly different.

[Bao]

Thanks Pandrews,

But still no one wants to say if they believe that you can combine Taiji and Xingyi, if you have this very physical approach to taiji. I would like to hear Felipe or someone experienced XY player about their view. And what is Yang Hai approach regarding his taiji-teaching? What he has said, is that Chen Taijiquan is his favorite style . . .

And if you believe that you can combine XY and Taijiquan, a harder and softer shenfa - do you then believe that you can practice the Xingyi ming and an stages at the same time?

I know from doing a bit of tai chi that they often do things a little differently, but there is still a progression in the tai chi form, at first you learn the movements, then make sure they are correct, then add in some roundness, then the continuous movement, and then later things like body lightness etc. It seems to me at least that in tai chi there is more freedom of expression and a lack of structure at the expense of learning more about energy and movement when you first start and then you slowly add the discipline and structure.

In both taiji and xingyi, you build structure from having no structure. Sure, in xy it might be clearer. But in Taijiquan you should also be able to learn very clearly about when and how your structure is strong. Every time you practice form, you study certain angles, and feel the alignment from inside. What is hard in taijiquan is that no one will force you to "feel" and no one can show you what and how to "feel" what is correct. If you don't get it, you just don't get it, and there is no one that can help you if you are not sincere enough and struggle hard enough to "get it". But you don't really build steady walls first, In taijiquan you will learn ´how to adjust your structure from inside.

With having that said I can also add that san ti practice rocks!

[middleway]

I remember when i first studied IMA from my main teacher ... i thought ... this cant be right ... it hurts way too much and i am sweating my balls off!

turns out thats precisely how you should train in the begining.

Generally people coming to IMA/martial arts in general are not strong/fit/healthy enough to actually fight anyone. this is the first thing to work on ... internal or external you have to be strong(not necessarily big muscle strong ...), fit and healthy if you want to work with combative practices. I think this is pretty much the single biggest problem in Martial Arts that i have found, lard ass lazy people relying on the founder of their style or the systems rep to save them when the shit hits the fan.

Hard work makes the fighter ... not so much hard thought ...

Cheers
Chris

[Inner_man]

I practised Yang Taiji and Hsing-I in parallel for many years and both my teachers were very insistent on my not confusing the two. I think I understand now as the intentions of both IMA are quite different (at least in the beginning anyway).

You can train both but you need to be disciplined not to blur the two.

As shifu says "you fight how you train".

[Bao]

I practised Yang Taiji and Hsing-I in parallel for many years and both my teachers were very insistent on my not confusing the two. I think I understand now as the intentions of both IMA are quite different (at least in the beginning anyway).

You can train both but you need to be disciplined not to blur the two.

As shifu says "you fight how you train".

Intention is different you say, and that is true. What about the body mechanics and practice? What was so different here that you should not "blur the two"?

You fight as you train. If you train two completely different styles, which one of them would you personally choose to fight with? In the beginning stages, can you fight with both of them without blurring them together?

[Inner_man]

I see taiji and hsing-i as two different chapters in the same book. Jumbling it all together and you get confusion, read ea chapter as it was written to be read and you get to read an interesting story. Interpretation only comes with knowledge so you gotta do the hard yards 1st.

My taiji improved heaps when I started hsing-i and my yrs of taiji helped me pick up on certain aspects of hsing-i that wouldve taken me much longer to get results otherwise so there are benefits from "cross training" its just important not to confuse the two.

Im sure that Hsing-i will help me deliver the goods if needed as that is my preferred art and what seriously Im concentrating on. But having said that I have reflexed in a Taiji way once in a pub to a meathead throwing his weight around. That was interesting as there was no thought involved and I definitely didnt respond in the way I thought I would so who knows? (BTW - I sat him down on his arse in the middle of a full pub in a totally controlled fashion without extreme violence and the pub's bouncer never even looked at me - he flew past me, picked up "the guy with the small dick" and threw him out the door, as far he was concerned I was not threat to anyone and in fact maybe even a calming influence).

However every fight is different and totally unique so who knows eh?

In the beginning its all a mess for a noob anyway so can you say that they are fighting a particular style? at this stage I beleive not.. and ultimately of course form is discarded anyway once you make whatever style you practise yours thats why (IMO) the masters all look so bad (deviating from the classics they have taught) as they are discarding what theyve learnt and making it THEIR kung fu. (wait for the flames......)

Its important to be able to distinguish the 'fu flavours' otherwise you risk missing the important lessons inherent to each style. Kung fu is a journey, the style is only the road you take to get to where you want to be so its all a lot of talk till you have to make it work eh?

[Bao]

In the beginning its all a mess for a noob anyway so can you say that they are fighting a particular style?

What you do in the beginning is that you build up your basic shen fa (body method). I agree very much that you need about 5 or 7 years to develop a shen fa. This is approximately the time you need, regardless style. Just because it is very messy in the beginning, the practice must be very focused and structured. The body must build up the structural muscles necessary, you must learn the balance, the way of moving and coordinating the body.

The trouble is that different styles use structure and balance in coordination with footwork very differently. They gain strength from different parts of the body. Some styles use a direct connection with hand, foot and dantian. Other styles use an in-direct method of connection (whip-like). Some styles are very compact, some others are very loose. I say different styles, but in fact, many styles teach different methods of shen fa. But very seldom, they teach two different at the same time.

Can you practice "relax and loose" at the same time as "compact". If we go back and focus on the original article of the thread, I see (modern) chen style taiji as quite contradictory compared to Xingyi. Chen style form practice teach a loose and actually quite disconnected shenfa (if you compare it with wu/hao or medium frame yang style, or even the older small frame Chen style.) Xing yi on the other hand teach a very compact, direct method. Xy fajin does not shake, it suddenly explodes and that's it. The expression of Chen style shenfa and fa jin are both very different from Xy.

I teach Sun style taijiquan. In the sun schools, tj, bg and xy often are taught together. But for my own class, I have cut of the bagua completely. For Xingyi, I only teach the most basic exercises as Santi and the wuxing. I dont teach the fundamental ming shenfa of XY. The main focus is taijiquan and to build a good taijiquan foundation for my beginners. I have introduced a very compact frame, but I left that and got back try to build the foundation on relaxation, structure and balance. Every time I mix things, my students just screw up everything up. So I want them to first understand what deep relaxation means, and how they control their structure and build both root and strength from relaxation.

Another example is from my friend who practice HJB yin-bagua in Beijing. He has studied this style approximately for five years now. And the last two years with HJB. I saw that he was almost a bit angry when he said that HJB was going to introduce unicorn or phoenix(can't remember which one). He does not want to mix his shen fa, because this would be just like starting from zero again and he think it would not be good for his lion. He wants to become much better before starting all over again with another method. I have also tried practicing YBG lion style. But I can tell you that I can not make it match with my taijiquan. The shen fa is much to different. It is a very strange feeling. So if I wanted to get good in that system, I would have to start from zero, as a beginner. I can just say that I admire people who can handle two such different body methods at the same time. I could not, not even with my more than 20 years of experience. My taijiquan has different faces, I can have a very loose shan fa and a more compact one, but it is still all taijiquan.

So back to my question: What I think is curious is that if the XingYi practice is very strict and focused, how can you at the same time teach another kind of shenfa for the same students? And if you can do that, why are you so strict with the XY shenfa?

If you can mix different body methods, it doesn't matter if you mix two different styles or does it in one style. Either you are very strict and teach one kind of shen fa and have your students to stick to that one. The other option is that you are not concerned about building shen fa and focus on applications, techniques and/or maybe sparring.

. . . Maybe this is a to hot potato or to much btdt. But no one wants to answer this . . .

[charles]

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