Taijiquan vs Punching and Kicking

[somatai]

actually chris has been very nice toward you....i teased you for the reasons he listed and the fact that your video reaveals much more than your words...you are pedantic and talking like a teenager who just finished the wandering taoist.....settle a little and listen and you may find some useful stuff here...most of it is rubbish, but every once in a while

[BruceP]

WILLIE, your tai chi fighting skills look as good as those of any other authentic practitioner's. Thanks for posting your clip

[WILLIE]

actually chris has been very nice toward you....i teased you for the reasons he listed and the fact that your video reaveals much more than your words...you are pedantic and talking like a teenager who just finished the wandering taoist.....settle a little and listen and you may find some useful stuff here...most of it is rubbish, but every once in a while

ya,well that vid was made for some taiji players in malaysia and thailand,who expessed some concerns about a group of mma guys giving them a hard time,the vid was cut short on purpose to leave out things that would counter alot of their stuff. (they requested it) and we have been friends for 2 years and write everyday. i plan on heading out there as well.
so there was nothing wrong with that vid. so i guess your wrong about it and me.

nice? i found nothing nice

pedantic? where's your vid? pentantic (better be sure)

[BruceP]

...most of it is rubbish,...

The uncarved block already knows how to cast an arrow.

[shawnsegler]

I'ma go watch circle of iron again. It's been too long.

S

[ashe]

you go fuck yourself!

good bye

[Josealb]

Heheh...Chris talking...and willi responding like that...made me think of some of monty python's taunts.

[Chris McKinley]

It's too bad he couldn't just tame it a little and jump back in. He had some nice seamless transitions from his Taiji apps into some BJJ that could have made for some really interesting tactical discussion.

[cloudz]

cloudz,

RE: "Out of the schools that can be counted as martial, the number is imaterial.". It absolutely is not immaterial in that it would be intellectually dishonest to ignore the fact that out of over 300 million daily practitioners of an art worldwide, the number that practices that art for its actual intended purpose is far less than a hundredth of one percent. That number is so small as to be ignored in any serious discussion.

But why.. Is it smaller than bagua, or some other cma styles. What about baji? I don't think I could even find single class in or around London. I just think we should compare like for like.

It's the same with yiquan and hsingi - the numbers of descent teachers is small for all the IMA around where i live. i don't belive at all that the situation on the ground so to speak where i live is particularly atypical. in fact i probably have it better than a lot of people looking for instructors in these arts.

Further, since my original point was what occurs in the typical Taijiquan class, what is of no concern to my point is what the tiny handful of martial practitioners are doing.

But what has happened with taiji is far from typical to other cma or tma. So talking about the typical class and applying regular appraisals you would make of your typical ma class is imho misplaced.

No, I don't. In fact, once again, I'm not talking about the tiny handful of martially oriented Taijiquan schools at all. Further, I'm ignoring ideas of lineage altogether as completely non sequitur to the discussion.

[/quote]

Fair enough, I just think we should compare like for like. If the teacher can't satisfy where his cma comes from, that it is indeed an authentic transmission then it again imo should not even factor into the equation. As well as if you don't have a connection to the art you have no responsibility or tradition to continue that martial heritage. I'm not saying it is any guarantee of anything. Just that I'm pretty sure there lots of teachers in the West who aren't in any genuine way shape or form teaching Chinese quan in their teaching of tai chi.

I discount from all discussion to do with martial arts - they are not part of it. Would you take into account boxercise classes in a discussion of combat sports

When they have nothing to do with combat?

[cloudz]

What does your taiji practice have to practice defending against punches and kicks? What kinds of drills do you do? What skills does you taiji practice emphasize for defending against punches and kicks? Do you practice punching and kicking in your style? How does your taijiquan practice transfer your skills at defending punches and kicks to a real scenario?

Is anyone going to answer the damn question?

Basically (though you can have variations on the theme)
one step type technique drills/apps and free sparring.

[Chris McKinley]

cloudz,

RE: "But why.. Is it smaller than bagua, or some other cma styles.". Actually, with respect to Baguazhang, the answer is probably quite literally "yes". However, what's important here is the gross discrepancy in the percentages of the practitioners. The percentage of practitioners studying their art for actual fighting use, whether from Baguazhang, Bajiquan, Xing Yi Quan, Yiquan, or literally any other Chinese martial art style that exists is different from those doing so in Taijiquan by literally orders of magnitude. In fact, the percentage differences between all of those styles is statistically negligible compared to the difference between all of them and Taijiquan. Yes, it's that bad.

RE: "I just think we should compare like for like.". But you can't do so with any intellectual honesty. That would be like saying that Western boxing is really not a martial art at all, but really a nonconfrontational method of solo meditation, finding the one guy on the entire planet who actually uses boxing for that, and saying let's use him to compare boxing with other forms of meditation. It would be absurdly dishonest to claim you are comparing like for like.

The total numbers of given arts aren't what it's about. It's about how the art is represented and commonly taught as a whole. Most of the world wouldn't even consider taijiquan to be a martial art in the first place. That's horribly sad and such, but them's the facts, as they say.

RE: "But what has happened with taiji is far from typical to other cma or tma.". And that's entirely the point. If we are going to discuss how the art of Taijiquan handles punches and kicks, we can't just blithely start talking about various tactics and techniques, the way we might with any other Chinese art, and completely ignore the unique level of total degredation that Taijiquan specifically has experienced. To do so is grossly dishonest.

RE: "If the teacher can't satisfy where his cma comes from, that it is indeed an authentic transmission then it again imo should not even factor into the equation.". Lineage has nearly nothing to do with it. There is no equating lineage with combat functionality. Plenty of folks with beautifully detailed histories of the most authentic lineage still suck total gluteus maximus when it comes to teaching people how to actually fight. No less so than your local YMCA Tie Chee, in most cases.

RE: "As well as if you don't have a connection to the art you have no responsibility or tradition to continue that martial heritage.". It's not about historical preservation, it's about being able to fight. If you can't fight, you can't fight....whether you're a guy who learned Taijiquan fourth-hand from a David Carradine video or you're a lineage holder yourself.

RE: "Would you take into account boxercise classes in a discussion of combat sports When they have nothing to do with combat?". If literally more than 99.99% of what was labelled "combat sports" was actually boxercise, then intellectual honesty would absolutely require that I do so. To ignore such a complete dominance in statistical distribution would be grossly dishonest.

[blacksheep]

how many years does it take a taiji practitioner to use he's art to effectively control a good striker?
is it possible?

[Chris McKinley]

blacksheep,

That's an impossible question to answer. For instance, who says it takes X amount of years to begin with? If so, why assume the same number of years for everyone? What if the Taiji practitioner is himself a good striker? How are you defining "control" of someone?

IOW, your questions raise more questions than any simple answers could provide.

[blacksheep]

blacksheep,

That's an impossible question to answer. For instance, who says it takes X amount of years to begin with? If so, why assume the same number of years for everyone? What if the Taiji practitioner is himself a good striker? How are you defining "control" of someone?

IOW, your questions raise more questions than any simple answers could provide.

good answer,i was reading back a coulpe pages on this.

well it looks like it takes years to get that smooth looking.
do you think that people excell at different paces?
well yes i thought i saw a video of someone controling a boxer.
do they strike too?
it seems the kung fu school down the street don't seem to be very impressed with taiji,this makes me wonder.

[Dmitri]

it seems the kung fu school down the street don't seem to be very impressed with taiji

That's probably because 95% of taiji out there is watered-down BS taught by people who don't understand the art themselves.