Xingyi and Bagua: means to an end. Sifu Patterson reviews

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Xingyi and Bagua: means to an end. Sifu Patterson reviews

Postby Bill on Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:44 am

neijia_boxer wrote:Dspyrido- can you elaborate on this statement more? The Chinese have already done a version of realistic Hsingyi training based on training fighters for full contact fighting call LSPCT?


To me it seems a joke off of the difficulty some Chinese have with the R and L sounds. :P
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Re: Xingyi and Bagua: means to an end. Sifu Patterson reviews

Postby Taste of Death on Wed Feb 11, 2015 12:41 pm

neijia_boxer wrote:
dspyrido wrote:Well duh! He patented the name so of course we wont see the name elsewhere. Oh wait I think there is a chinese version called ... LSPCT.


Dspyrido- can you elaborate on this statement more? The Chinese have already done a version of realistic Hsingyi training based on training fighters for full contact fighting call LSPCT?

Lu da wrote:Boxer,

Again I am sorry you do not like my opinion on Pattersons book my opinion of the book was not and is not a personal attack on your character or judgement. I have explained why I found the material lacking, you can take that explanation or you can leave it that is entirely up to you.

With regard to the three books mentioned I personally thought the section on santi in combat techniques was the most valuable piece of material in all of the books discussed. That chapter is worth it's weight in gold.


Lu Da,

Your opinions are fine. you did not like the book. you then threw out some insults along the way:

"Save your money, there are books that have the same information and more."

"The two person drills look interesting but ultimately it comes off as 'look at the cool shit we are doing' without offering any depth of understanding of xingyi."

"looks like xingyi colored tkd. "

which you are totally obliged to do insults to a outstanding member of the martial art community. However you hide behind a veil of cowardice to the the statements you make and not revealing who you are. You see there is something called being a man. In Chinese martial arts there is a saying, "Be a man , before being a martial artist", this is in reference to Wu de, having respect and righteousness. you already lost credibility a while back with those choice statements. A big reason why i have my own forum where people are forced to use their real names and in which Mr. Patterson was a regular contributor. It is not my style to insult martial artists who are authors and have "been there and done that" and then run and hide. maybe you should step up and learn to do the same.

The book with Lu Shenglei (Sp?) "Combat Techniques" was a re-hash of Sun Lutang's book on Hsingyi when he talks about Santi. Exactly what Mr. Patterson was avoiding, having to repeat what was already written in other books. I think his choice audience was his former students (some who have waited 20 years for his book) and people who fight. He did not want to address the following:

1. People who speculate to death the origin and history of Xingyiquan.
2. Woo-woo mysticism bullshitters.
3. Re-hash what had already been written in many other books.

So what that said, I have a question for you, is Tim's book Xingyi colored Brazilian Juijitsu?

if I decide to write a book, I def want to make it unique and not contain the same information written in other books. People want fresh and new ideas and Mr. Pattersons book does that.

Matt (aka Neijia_boxer)


Lu da did not like the book. One bad review is not the end of the world.

Is Neijia_boxer your given name? Your parents clearly have style.
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Re: Xingyi and Bagua: means to an end. Sifu Patterson reviews

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Feb 11, 2015 12:57 pm

Real bio,s
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Re: Xingyi and Bagua: means to an end. Sifu Patterson reviews

Postby dspyrido on Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:02 pm

Bill wrote:
neijia_boxer wrote:Dspyrido- can you elaborate on this statement more? The Chinese have already done a version of realistic Hsingyi training based on training fighters for full contact fighting call LSPCT?


To me it seems a joke off of the difficulty some Chinese have with the R and L sounds. :P


Yup and a reflection on cfc (chinese fried chicken). Naming rights is a pretty foreign concept.
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Re: Xingyi and Bagua: means to an end. Sifu Patterson reviews

Postby dspyrido on Wed Feb 11, 2015 2:05 pm

NeijaB - I also liked the book but was a little disappointed.

- A big part of the book is the standard forms with great descriptions. There are several books on this topic and mikes is clear and easy to follow.
- The RSPCT stuff is nice and a good set of tactics. If anything many cma miss this but mike does a great job in collating a lot of good 2 man routines.

But....

- But where is the ji beng gong that the hung branch has?
- Why does he seems to gloss over a major part of the conditioning routines ((bamboo bundle, pole/wrist etc.) that some of the other descendent schools seem to focus a lot of training time on?
- Why is body banging/pedagong just limited to the arms? I thought Hung's students spent a lot of time on this (behind closed doors) yet it does not come across.
- Also his statement on bag training is sensible but not clear - practice 10 go to 100 but stop if you fatigue. I think it is better stated as practice 100 properly vs. do 10 right.

It's almost like he is teaching in a form to technique heavy approach which I think is a good way to cement the beginner to medium level but ultimately I think its not about knowing 1000 techniques but having the body conditioning and adaptability to act.

Personally I felt that mike could produce almost a second volume on these topic (and anything I have missed) and include weapons routines. I have not got the baqua book so I don't know if he covers these topics in there.

And no I don't want to pick a fight with you or mike and I am not affiliated with his school or an enemy of mikes school. The closest I ever got to mike was being in vegas and trying to hook up with him. He was not in town at the time.
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Re: Xingyi and Bagua: means to an end. Sifu Patterson reviews

Postby Lu da on Wed Feb 11, 2015 2:37 pm

Boxer,

Im sorry you don't like my review of pattersons book. As I stated before I do not know the man personally or in any way but from reading his book. I make no judgements about pattersons skill or teaching ability. That being said I did not like his book and felt that someone could spend $20 on a better book. Don't like my opinion? At least you didn't waste $20 on my opinion.

With regards to your insults directed at me.....I am not beholden to you to answer any of your questions. Just because you demand that I tell you something does not mean that I am in any way obligated to answer your questions. You are not the boss of me, you do not own me, am not yours to command. You are posting on an internet message board with hundreds of others who all interact with pseudonyms using a pseudonym complaining about my pseudonym.

I realize that you are taking a poor review of a book written by an author you admire as a personal insult, but it's not your book. If Patterson doesn't care for my review let him write me a letter telling me that he doesn't care for it.
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Re: Xingyi and Bagua: means to an end. Sifu Patterson reviews

Postby ThreeFourFive on Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:42 pm

Lu da wrote:With regards to your insults directed at me.....I am not beholden to you to answer any of your questions. Just because you demand that I tell you something does not mean that I am in any way obligated to answer your questions. You are not the boss of me, you do not own me, am not yours to command. You are posting on an internet message board with hundreds of others who all interact with pseudonyms using a pseudonym complaining about my pseudonym.


I don't know NB personally, and don't really have anything against him. Even less so in the sense that I once partook the same attitude when I was a student of MP myself, when it came to his critics. It was definitely a group-think problem at his behest...

But I found the rabid demands for real names and accusation of trolling supremely ironic, considering.. It's a real eye roller for some of us who've been visiting here a LONG time.
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Re: Xingyi and Bagua: means to an end. Sifu Patterson reviews

Postby neijia_boxer on Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:50 am

Its all good, sorry folks for any aggression. Opinions, insults, etc. are welcome. I got 99 problems and this aint one. Thanks for the counter reviews everyone and Lu Da.
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Re: Xingyi and Bagua: means to an end. Sifu Patterson reviews

Postby Taste of Death on Thu Feb 12, 2015 3:41 pm

neijia_boxer wrote:Its all good, sorry folks for any aggression. Opinions, insults, etc. are welcome. I got 99 problems and this aint one. Thanks for the counter reviews everyone and Lu Da.


neijia_boxer for the win!
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Re: Xingyi and Bagua: means to an end. Sifu Patterson reviews

Postby neijia_boxer on Wed Feb 18, 2015 11:20 am

Nobody is trying to win here. We all lose in arguments.

Sifu Patterson many years ago had a forum on his webpage. It was very good and had some great information. Sadly it was invaded by Trollers and haters and got out of hand. He ended up closing/deleting it. This forum allows for anonymous posts so it is something to have to deal with. Personally I like a name with a face and I have met many people here from the forum.
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Re: Xingyi and Bagua: means to an end. Sifu Patterson reviews

Postby edededed on Wed Feb 18, 2015 7:01 pm

To be fair, regarding R and L sounds - I think that this is mainly a problem with native Japanese and Korean speakers, who have a sort of sound in between R and L instead (the Korean one is more "L-ish" than the Japanese one), and thus find it difficult to learn the L or the R sounds in English. So, "Engrish" technically is a phenomenon of Japan and Korea.

Mandarin Chinese actually has the L sound, and then they have a separate something-like-an-R sound (depending on region - may sound gutteral or zh-ish). For example, you can have the separate "lang4" ("wave") and "rang4" ("let") sounds in Mandarin.
Cantonese native speakers on the other hand seem to have trouble differentiating the L and N sounds, on the other hand - apparently a loss of some consonants within the last century...
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Re: Xingyi and Bagua: means to an end. Sifu Patterson reviews

Postby .Q. on Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:29 pm

edededed wrote:To be fair, regarding R and L sounds - I think that this is mainly a problem with native Japanese and Korean speakers, who have a sort of sound in between R and L instead (the Korean one is more "L-ish" than the Japanese one), and thus find it difficult to learn the L or the R sounds in English. So, "Engrish" technically is a phenomenon of Japan and Korea.

Mandarin Chinese actually has the L sound, and then they have a separate something-like-an-R sound (depending on region - may sound gutteral or zh-ish). For example, you can have the separate "lang4" ("wave") and "rang4" ("let") sounds in Mandarin.
Cantonese native speakers on the other hand seem to have trouble differentiating the L and N sounds, on the other hand - apparently a loss of some consonants within the last century...

One of my Japanese coworker has trouble distinguishing between R and L when TYPING English sentences. It was maddening and hilarious trying to read his reports ;D
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Re: Xingyi and Bagua: means to an end. Sifu Patterson reviews

Postby edededed on Thu Feb 19, 2015 5:46 pm

Exactly - because they both sound the same to native Japanese speakers, it is hard to remember whether R or L for them!

Amazingly, the old technology of spellcheck apparently has not been adopted in Japan yet, as misspelled English is rampant throughout the country, on signs, in the media, etc... which makes it worse, as people then memorize these wrong spellings ("labo" always ticks me off).
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Re: Xingyi and Bagua: means to an end. Sifu Patterson reviews

Postby Steve James on Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:18 pm

English speakers generally don't realize that r and l are almost the same sound. Try it. The difference is only in the shape of the tongue and its placement. That's one reason Bruce Lee ended up with the job of Kato. He could pronounce Britt Reed :)
Articulatory phonetics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_consonant

Ya know, it's the same thing with English speakers and languages with nasal sounds. "Bank" in French has uses a different vowel sound. Ha, reminds me that my French accent is always better when I have cold :). That's not even mentioning dipthongs, like "tutu." Portuguese has lots of words with nasals. Often English speakers really can't hear the difference. Otoh, there are languages with gutturals (for lack of a better term) like Arabic. English speakers hear the difference, but have trouble replicating the sound. But, English is a really difficult language to translate from speech to writing.

It was fun teaching ESL students how to pronounce English words. I remember trying to convince a woman from Mexico that she wanted to study at Yale not Jail, and that it was "Shcahgo" not "Chickcago."
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Re: Xingyi and Bagua: means to an end. Sifu Patterson reviews

Postby edededed on Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:31 pm

Each language does seem to have its own fairly unique way of making "r-like" sounds; but I think the (American) English one is quite unique.

The Japanese "r" is somewhat similar to the Spanish one - but with less trilling.
The Korean "r" is similar to the Japanese one - but comparatively closer to "l."

"L" sounds on the other hand seem to be the same in each language - if it has an "L."

But language skill is like a special filter - if your brain is fitted with the right one, it will properly place sounds into different categories as required. If you have the wrong one - say, a Japanese language filter for the English language - then the normally differentiated sounds ("R" and "L") will be thrown into a same, undifferentiated bucket (the "RL" bucket). Conversely, actually different sounds that are not normally differentiated will be thrown into the same bucket without loss in comprehension.

Bruce Lee should NOT have been Kato, if only because a REAL Kato (i.e. Japanese-born) would have said "Blitto Leedo." We demand authenticity!
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