Xingyi and Bagua: means to an end. Sifu Patterson reviews

[neijia_boxer]

With all due respect to your opinion Lu Da,

Sifu Patterson and his fight team are very well versed in the fighting aspects of the art and proved it by winning All-China full contact events in USA and Taiwan.
He covers fighting for the streets, fully knowing that there is a huge difference in sport fighting and real-world self defense which he covers.

His books cover a ton of fighting drills no other books have. And no other Hsingyi (xingyi) books have his system of training fighters called RSPCT.

so If I compare it to all other Hsingyi books in my own library:
1. Other books are written by non-fighters who probably would get their ass handed to them in a competition or streets.
2. Of the hsingyi books i have... none cover body banging / hardening/conditioning drills.
3. Having many Hsingyi books I found a ton of information others did not have and training ideas.
4. I have plenty of Hsingyi books that did not make me write down notes and ideas to work on in my own practice as much as Sifu Patterson's book has.

@Lu Da- please list these awesome books you mention with same and/or better information for us. Thank You.

[mrtoes]

Thanks for the review Matt. Sounds like great application material and Patterson's fighting credentials are well established.

Can I ask what the book covers in terms of power development - does he cover specific martial nei gung for the purposes of strength development, or is power developed through training such as full speed five fists, dragon jumping, weights, bag/pad striking etc?

Matthew

[Lu da]

Boxer,

I'm sorry you took my expressed opinion on this book as an insult, that was not my intention. As I said I have never met Patterson and have no understanding of his ability and am only judging the book on it's merits alone.

I felt this book missed the mark completely. When I finished it I asked myself 'what is this book trying to convey?' I assumed that it's goal was to pass on a basic understanding of xingyi and in this way I feel the book failed. Now it's not purely the authors fault I felt the format was wrong and the editor is to blame for that.

Before you get too upset please allow me to explain. This book has a good section demonstrating the movements which was clear and useable. There is a section discussing partner drills which I found interesting but rather impractical as most people who learn xingyi from a book learn it by themselves and anyone in an organized class probably gets some partner and application work.

Where this book was lacking was the discussion of internal force. I'm not talking about hippy qi balls or anything but there is a formula for training internal connectivity which has worked well for several hundred years. This book ignores it and almost completely ignores the practice of santi shi except for a small section named 9 essences where the shape of the posture is explained but there is no explanation on how or why to practice it. Someone with some xingyi experience might be able to piece together the section on meditation and 9 essences to come up with some small idea of what is supposed to happen but the two sections being separated by 200 pages makes this doubtful. Considering that most xingyi masters would insist that santi shi is probably the single most important exercise for a person to practice in xingyi this is a huge omission.

The two person drills look interesting but ultimately it comes off as 'look at the cool shit we are doing' without offering any depth of understanding of xingyi.


As I said before there is some interesting stuff in the book but little that would make it worthwhile as a xingyi manual and in the end it seems to fail at the task it sets out to accomplish. Some of the basic strategies and shapes of xingyi are presented in this book (though footwork is hardly discussed) but in the end what comes out of this is a purely external vision of xingyi which ultimately looks like xingyi colored tkd.

[neijia_boxer]

Lu Da,

Whose Real name i would like to know, please provide here or pm. I was never insulted nor upset, it was just a book review. Your opinions are welcome. However publicly on this thread, you do come across quite arrogant in a entertaining way which raises an eyebrow. That aside, please share your accomplishments in Hsingyi. ...And the awesome books you talk about.

I not sure you read the book completely.

The reason why he does not go into santi and internal power is because he mentions it has already been done to death in other books. He didnt want to take the book in that direction. He does talk about internal power subtle in the book in other ways.

In all fairness, i am not his student but have met him at tournaments, seen his guys fight and do forms. Can you share any videos of you?

Have at it.






Matt stampe

[Taste of Death]

Mike Patterson website
http://www.hsing-i.com/school_awards/index.html

youtube channel
https://www.youtube.com/user/MrMikePatterson/videos?sort=dd&view=0&shelf_index=0

[Lu da]

Boxer,

As I have said many times I am a man of no accomplishments and of no skill. My opinion of the book is not based in any way upon pattersons skill or ability as I know nothing of either, instead I am only expressing my opinion on his book.

With regards to internal force he covers in brefily as if to say 'external force exists' but that is the sum of it. Wanted this book to have more to it but as I said I was ultimately disappointed.

I dont buy the idea that santi should not be included in a xingyi manual because it's been done to death. Every book I have read that includes santi has a very different way of explaining it. The impression I get from the book is that it's not important to the author. That's fine but as I said it makes the book come a cross as an external manual of xingyi.

[neijia_boxer]

Lu Da,

Again you showing me you did not read the book. It is very deep in internal.

He does cover Santi , 7 stars, and 9 essence , etc.

He does talk about Internal power throughout in book in other ways- meditation, energy, a chapter devoted to developing Shen, Qi, jin, Yi, etc.
He discusses Kinetics- front, back, and combined release of power. Developing these energies/power via solo, standing, partner drills, and various levels of sparring from light to heavy.

Matt

[Lu da]

Boxer,

I am sorry you do not like my assessment of the book, I wasn't attempting to make a personal attack on you or question your judgement. Perhaps we should agree to disagree on this matter.

[Doc Stier]

Lu da: With all due respect for your opinion, I would also be interested in seeing the list of books you have referred to here that you consider more informative regarding xingyiquan.

Although I don't consider Mr. Patterson the final word of authority on this subject, and in all likelihood neither does he, his continuing presence and success as a practitioner and teacher over the past many years time certainly lends credibility to his personal perspective and teaching of the art, imo. I have seen many instructors come and go during the past 54 years of my involvement in these arts. The vast majority were mere flashes in the pan, so to speak, who disappeared with little or no lasting legacy to mark their mercifully brief appearance upon the stage. Mr. Patterson is clearly not one to be counted among that decidedly forgettable group of would be experts!

In any case, I consider books and videos to be primarily of value as reference materials for those who have some degree of ongoing study and training experience with an accomplished master, not as stand alone self-instruction tools.

[Lu da]

Doc,

As I mentioned before I have no personal knowledge of Patterson or his students. I make no claim to knowledge of his ability or that of his students. Patterson may be a phenomenal teacher and everything that he touches may turn to gold, I still didn't find it valuable to me. If you take my opinion as a personal slight or challenge to your intellect or judgement I am sorry that is not my intention.

What books did I find more informative?
Xingyichuan theory and application
Combat techniques of xingyi, taiji, and Bagua
Xingyi neigong

[aamc]

Errr... That was weird. Can we have a difference of opinion without it turning into a witch hunt?

Matt likes it and found it informative.
Lu da didn't, suggests books he found informative.

I'll form my own opinion on reading it. The world keeps on turning.

[neijia_boxer]

...yeah but homie won't reveal who he is and hiding out like a troller with the snub talk. At least he finally gave us some book titles

Those three are in my collection. Tim's and Liang Shouyu's are the better of the three.

who are you bro? yeah Lu Da?

[dspyrido]

His books cover a ton of fighting drills no other books have. And no other Hsingyi (xingyi) books have his system of training fighters called RSPCT.

Well duh! He patented the name so of course we wont see the name elsewhere. Oh wait I think there is a chinese version called ... LSPCT.

The irony is the copyright is on the brand not on the techniques so ... plagarise away boys.

[Lu da]

Boxer,

Again I am sorry you do not like my opinion on Pattersons book my opinion of the book was not and is not a personal attack on your character or judgement. I have explained why I found the material lacking, you can take that explanation or you can leave it that is entirely up to you.

With regard to the three books mentioned I personally thought the section on santi in combat techniques was the most valuable piece of material in all of the books discussed. That chapter is worth it's weight in gold.

[neijia_boxer]

Well duh! He patented the name so of course we wont see the name elsewhere. Oh wait I think there is a chinese version called ... LSPCT.

Dspyrido- can you elaborate on this statement more? The Chinese have already done a version of realistic Hsingyi training based on training fighters for full contact fighting call LSPCT?

Boxer,

Again I am sorry you do not like my opinion on Pattersons book my opinion of the book was not and is not a personal attack on your character or judgement. I have explained why I found the material lacking, you can take that explanation or you can leave it that is entirely up to you.

With regard to the three books mentioned I personally thought the section on santi in combat techniques was the most valuable piece of material in all of the books discussed. That chapter is worth it's weight in gold.

Lu Da,

Your opinions are fine. you did not like the book. you then threw out some insults along the way:

"Save your money, there are books that have the same information and more."

"The two person drills look interesting but ultimately it comes off as 'look at the cool shit we are doing' without offering any depth of understanding of xingyi."

"looks like xingyi colored tkd. "

which you are totally obliged to do insults to a outstanding member of the martial art community. However you hide behind a veil of cowardice to the the statements you make and not revealing who you are. You see there is something called being a man. In Chinese martial arts there is a saying, "Be a man , before being a martial artist", this is in reference to Wu de, having respect and righteousness. you already lost credibility a while back with those choice statements. A big reason why i have my own forum where people are forced to use their real names and in which Mr. Patterson was a regular contributor. It is not my style to insult martial artists who are authors and have "been there and done that" and then run and hide. maybe you should step up and learn to do the same.

The book with Lu Shenglei (Sp?) "Combat Techniques" was a re-hash of Sun Lutang's book on Hsingyi when he talks about Santi. Exactly what Mr. Patterson was avoiding, having to repeat what was already written in other books. I think his choice audience was his former students (some who have waited 20 years for his book) and people who fight. He did not want to address the following:

1. People who speculate to death the origin and history of Xingyiquan.
2. Woo-woo mysticism bullshitters.
3. Re-hash what had already been written in many other books.

So what that said, I have a question for you, is Tim's book Xingyi colored Brazilian Juijitsu?

if I decide to write a book, I def want to make it unique and not contain the same information written in other books. People want fresh and new ideas and Mr. Pattersons book does that.

Matt (aka Neijia_boxer)