How many of you...

[dragontigerpalm]

dragontigerpalm,

RE: "Being able to respond effectively to surprise attacks where one takes the first strike needs to be trained but it has been my experience that such attacks rarely begin as frontal attacks to the face/head.". Yet that's predominantly where they do begin, according to actual crime report statistics. Further, please note that I didn't mention "face", although that's just as good, but the head in general.

RE: "Often surprise attacks are sucker punches to the back or side of the head or a shove neither of which are usually disabling though of course can be momentarily disorienting.". Actually, a strike to the back of the head is far more likely to result in disorientation and concussion, especially if the strike is to the occipital ridge and/or cervical spine.

Chris,
I'm really amazed that statistics reveal that surprise attacks are predominantly frontal since an ambush is the best way to take someone unawares and it's certainly easier to ambush someone from the side or back. Obviously it's much harder to surprise someone while you are facing them. At any rate I only speak from my direct personal experience and observation which, while hardly inclusive, does span decades.
Regarding strikes to the rear of the head again I can't argue with statistics but I have never seen a disabling strike to the rear of the head by a bare hand/fist in any bar or street fight.

[Ian]

it makes a lot of difference. when two people agree to spar, they're physically and psychologically prepared to get hit.

do you think it'd make a difference to get hit in the dark or while your vision is impeded (i.e. you can't see the strike coming)?

Well you don't go around socking people in your class without agreement do you. So despite what you might say your class is physically and psychologically prepared for may or may not transpire in it. Even if they don't know exactly when where or how.

Nothing they can't get used to through sparring. Nothing at all. not that that's the only way to train. just making that point.


Also ,no I havn't trained in the dark, sadly.. and anyway wouldn't both parties be in a similar disadvantage/ advantage if you were both in the dark?

what would you like do to be hit and be put at a disadvantage. Tell him exactly where you are, grab him first so he knows?

hey buddy here's where my face is, please hit me a bunch of times. Yea that would be of great benefit, not to mention realistic!

Or you would just do the sensible thing instead and have your little tear up in the dark without all the pretentions of the disadvantageous "reality" simulation under discussion - taking the first hit(s) by agreement

sorry, it's my policy to not engage in discussions with people who reject things without trying them first.

I can tell from your antagonism that you're not here to discuss. so in turn, I'm not here to answer your questions.

[Chris McKinley]

dragontigerpalm,

I'm sorry, I think I may have misread your post. Statistically, such assaults do begin with strikes to the head, but not necessarily to the face, per se, but curiously, front, side or back doesn't show as much variation as one might think. I, too, would agree that ambushing someone from behind would further skew the odds in my favor. Perhaps it has to do with the fact that people move their heads around so much as well as change the angle of their posture that an attack from behind isn't always an achieveable ideal. I really don't know on that one.

RE: "Regarding strikes to the rear of the head again I can't argue with statistics but I have never seen a disabling strike to the rear of the head by a bare hand/fist in any bar or street fight.". In that particular case, you wouldn't be arguing with statistics so much as medical science. Stun effects and even unconsciousness are, in fact, the easiest to achieve along the occiput than anywhere else on the skull save for the nerves that run along the posterior lateral mandible, or the joint of the jawbone. It is this area that is often the direct cause of concussion in blunt strikes to the face, since such strikes cause compression of the cervical spine at the atlas/axis, as well as hydrostatic and impact compression of the brain stem and visual cortex due to secondary impact shock. From personal experience, knockouts to this area of the head in demonstration became so easy that I quit doing them altogether several years ago for safety/ethical reasons.

[dragontigerpalm]

dragontigerpalm,

I'm sorry, I think I may have misread your post. Statistically, such assaults do begin with strikes to the head, but not necessarily to the face, per se, but curiously, front, side or back doesn't show as much variation as one might think. I, too, would agree that ambushing someone from behind would further skew the odds in my favor. Perhaps it has to do with the fact that people move their heads around so much as well as change the angle of their posture that an attack from behind isn't always an achieveable ideal. I really don't know on that one.

RE: "Regarding strikes to the rear of the head again I can't argue with statistics but I have never seen a disabling strike to the rear of the head by a bare hand/fist in any bar or street fight.". In that particular case, you wouldn't be arguing with statistics so much as medical science. Stun effects and even unconsciousness are, in fact, the easiest to achieve along the occiput than anywhere else on the skull save for the nerves that run along the posterior lateral mandible, or the joint of the jawbone. It is this area that is often the direct cause of concussion in blunt strikes to the face, since such strikes cause compression of the cervical spine at the atlas/axis, as well as hydrostatic and impact compression of the brain stem and visual cortex due to secondary impact shock. From personal experience, knockouts to this area of the head in demonstration became so easy that I quit doing them altogether several years ago for safety/ethical reasons.

Chris,
I don't disagree with the medical science that is excellently described in your post. It's just that I have never seen it happen. Now the reason for this is most likely because those who I've seen who have initiated these kind of attacks ie: bullies, street thugs and assorted other sucker punchers are by and large not trained fighters. They're often experienced at what they do and are obviously violently aggressive but, and again this solely from my experience, they generally do not deliver hard powerful knockout punches. The viciousness and brutality of their attacks are expressed by repeated blows rather than by a single strike. They beat their victims down rather than knock them out.

[Daniel]

Good thread, Chris.

Yes, this is good training to do, depending on what your purpose is. If it is for something to be functional in real life, in whatever version, doing things like this will really increase your chances of making it work.

Another version, aiming more for the emotional shock, is to take five-six people who use big striking-pads and have them push the "victim" around for a a minute or two, yelling things. Then you shift into picking the group apart, but from that level of shock. Or, at simpler levels, go from that to working with only one partner/opponent instead.

Yes (as questioned a while back), it can be done with knives. You take live blades, tape them down to no points and only a millimeter edge. Gets you used to being cut and still able to work, and it does this surprisingly fast, really. One person has the blade in the drill, one has bare arms, or variations of this. Should of course only be done if you can expect to face this in your job or work really deeply in Spiritual IMA/meditation or combination thereof. Doing this is a bit of a dangerous practice and you really need to be awake and alive to do it. Other good ways to build up to it is to do roushou while holding a live blade but not using it, then do roushou shifting into attacks and defences while using a live blade but not actually aiming to hit yet. Yi bu yi bu lai. I have seen long-time martial artist completely freak out even if you only do push hands with them while holding a live blade that hangs by your side... You can also do slow sparring with live blades for a very long time, Taiji-speed and up, and shifting between those speeds.

...and yes, kids, don´t do this at home, for god´s sake, not unless you really have a reason for this type of training and are on the level for it (does one really need to post warnings like this on EF?).

This also goes into all the uses of intention-based work in IMA, and how you learn to use intention, while later on shifting between the four levels of it.

One exercise that sounds simple but which really can freak people out, is to have one person stand still and someone else go at them full force...but no touch. Just the attacks, for five minutes. You can shift attacker if your arms get tired... There are techniques that the "standee" do while standing there too. Then you practice. Or, if braver, sit with it.

And any work like this done in any school or class should of course be done at the level of both participants. Scaring the bejeezus out of a beginner is not exactly a difficult skill to master...many are those Sith out there who hold black-belts in that art...

D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[Chris McKinley]

dragontigerpalm,

RE: "Now the reason for this is most likely because those who I've seen who have initiated these kind of attacks ie: bullies, street thugs and assorted other sucker punchers are by and large not trained fighters. They're often experienced at what they do and are obviously violently aggressive but, and again this solely from my experience, they generally do not deliver hard powerful knockout punches.". Nope. And I think that's the point you seem to keep missing here. An occipital ridge doesn't know whether the object delivering force to it belongs to a sentient living organism who has been "trained" or not. It is simply vulnerable to a concussive strike, period.

Again, one does not need a "hard powerful knockout punch" to cause concussion here. In fact, it can be surprisingly easy to achieve. Keep in mind, one is not striking the bowling ball on top of the neck called the skull here. That's a really stupid place to try and punch somebody barehanded in real combat. We aren't even talking about a punch, necessarily at all. Almost all of the KO's I've done on people to this anatomical target have been with open palm or wrist strikes, and delivered with not much more than what it takes to slap somebody on the back after a good game.

[Chris McKinley]

Daniel,

Your suggestion about incorporating emotional compromise into the training is also a good one. All of what we're discussing here is part of what is commonly called scenario training, and it definitely involves emotional components as well as physical.

As to your knife training recommendation, that's not something I'm comfortable suggesting over the internet personally. When it comes to weapons, if I'm not physically present and supervising the training myself, I don't like to get into much detail about training methodologies. For me, that policy is a matter of ethics as a trainer and consideration of safety for those I might influence. Further, even though I experienced quite a bit of it myself in my training, I don't advocate live blades for the training hall. Too much risk for reward in most cases, and especially nowadays, there are so many much safer training options when it comes to blades specifically designed for training.

RE: "...kids, don´t do this at home, for god´s sake, not unless you really have a reason for this type of training and are on the level for it (does one really need to post warnings like this on EF?". Yes, we most definitely do. EF is nothing special. It certainly doesn't have an entrance requirement that all posters be trained in the responsible use of weapons or even any particular combat training experience whatsoever. If it did, almost all the posters would be gone instantly. Hell, there's not even much of a stringently enforced age requirement. EF is just a forum for the exchange of information, that's it. There's nothing magical about posting here that automatically qualifies people to longtime veterans of responsible training in lethal weapons. Always remember that.

[dragontigerpalm]

dragontigerpalm,

RE: "Now the reason for this is most likely because those who I've seen who have initiated these kind of attacks ie: bullies, street thugs and assorted other sucker punchers are by and large not trained fighters. They're often experienced at what they do and are obviously violently aggressive but, and again this solely from my experience, they generally do not deliver hard powerful knockout punches.". Nope. And I think that's the point you seem to keep missing here. An occipital ridge doesn't know whether the object delivering force to it belongs to a sentient living organism who has been "trained" or not. It is simply vulnerable to a concussive strike, period.

Again, one does not need a "hard powerful knockout punch" to cause concussion here. In fact, it can be surprisingly easy to achieve. Keep in mind, one is not striking the bowling ball on top of the neck called the skull here. That's a really stupid place to try and punch somebody barehanded in real combat. We aren't even talking about a punch, necessarily at all. Almost all of the KO's I've done on people to this anatomical target have been with open palm or wrist strikes, and delivered with not much more than what it takes to slap somebody on the back after a good game.

Chris,
Again I repeat that I have never seen this happen in the real so I must conclude that it is not so easily accomplished by regular untrained people who have violent confrontations. As vulnerable as the occipital ridge is, it is either a very elusive target or it is vulnerable to more concussive strikes than I have seen delivered to date.
I'm guessing that you are not a street predator or a knucklehead bar bully when not training, teaching or posting on ef so that I believe that it is you who is missing the point here. Your knowledge and ability is atypical when compared to those who are involved with muggings, bar brawls etc. As stupid as it is to hit the hard parts of the head with a bare knuckle fist that is exactly what most untrained or non martial artists do when fighting. If you were the typical jerk that I have had to encounter on a regular basis as a bouncer I would retire immediately.

[Chris McKinley]

I'm nothing too special. I wish I could meet with you in person to show you just how (relatively) easy it is for even an untrained female to make that strike happen effectively. You keep going back to punches, and specifically, punches to the skull. That has very little to do with what I'm describing at all, so if that's all you've seen, I'm not surprised you haven't seen what I'm talking about. Remember though, just because you haven't personally seen it doesn't mean it can't be accomplished, and perhaps more easily than you realize. I remember the first time I realized just how easy it was to get blood chokes. It surprised me how little pressure you had to use, and I was already familiar with Teh R34l by then, and had even used a blood choke in a real situation already.

[Daniel]

Fair enough, Chris. I´ll keep it in mind. Thanks.

Should one be inclined to become more acquainted with live blades, just as a training-technique when you don´t actually have to face them or use them for a living, the simple one I mentioned, where you just hold a live blade by your side, unused, while doing Taiji basic push hands, is a good intro to how much most people freeze up when faced with a live blade. The shock is often more an emotional one than physical; if it´s a sharp blade you often don´t even feel the cut, only notice when you start bleeding. What most people don´t realize is the immense change in energy and mind that happens in your system if you hold a genuine knife or gun. This effect is part of what affects your opponent - or you, if you´re in front of it.

But - to repeat from the Functional-training thread - it´s more useful to keep your training focused on what you as a person need to work on right now. If you can´t relax your hands and feet, but want to do lots of Five Fists or Santi, you might want to reconsider the build-up you have in your training and start gearing it for basics that will blossom to full fruit further down the line. If you aren´t comfortable with your everyday existence then that might be where you training should begin, not with trying to achieve perfection in every usage and facet of Zuanquan...

The techniques for activating emotional energy and blockages are quite strong. Many martial artists miss out on this part. But if you are faced with a group of attackers there still might be the activation of old memories from school, or bullies, that might make you freeze on the spot, despite the fact that the same memories seem really trivial to your conscious mind. I have seen what happens to people when attacked by a group of ten kids with an average age of 12, and even when so small, the sheer emotional activation in people becomes immense - and they freeze up.

Oh, well. Lots of things to be said on this subject. It´s past midnight here now. Good thread though; it might make people rethink their training a little bit.

D.




Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[bigphatwong]

I'm not saying you should go nancying back to the other end of the spectrum (that's what got us where we are in the first place), but simply to be aware of what's possible for training safety. Remember, Houdini famously died from internal hemorrhaging due to an unprepared punch to the solar plexus.

I thought he drowned

[dragontigerpalm]

I'm nothing too special. I wish I could meet with you in person to show you just how (relatively) easy it is for even an untrained female to make that strike happen effectively. You keep going back to punches, and specifically, punches to the skull. That has very little to do with what I'm describing at all, so if that's all you've seen, I'm not surprised you haven't seen what I'm talking about. Remember though, just because you haven't personally seen it doesn't mean it can't be accomplished, and perhaps more easily than you realize. I remember the first time I realized just how easy it was to get blood chokes. It surprised me how little pressure you had to use, and I was already familiar with Teh R34l by then, and had even used a blood choke in a real situation already.

Chris,
I keep referring to punches to the head because that is how you started this thread so to me it makes sense to stay on point. It's not that all I have seen are only head punches but all that I've seen isn't the issue. I have seen many kinds of fights for more than forty years and people hit in all different ways with all sorts of objects ie: bottles, pool cues, billiard balls, ashtrays, bar stools, tables, baseball bats etc. or hit by being put into bars, tables, brick walls, lamp posts/telephone poles, cars, curbs, floors, sidewalks/streets etc. Now while I haven't seen what you've described happen as a result of a bare handed attack to the back of the head I'm not saying that it can't be easily accomplished but that it does not readily happen. I don't think that hundreds of fights over a period of forty plus years is an insignificant sampling though.

[Chris McKinley]

dragontigerpalm,

I'm not invalidating your experience, just trying to keep you precise in what we're discussing. To keep referring to punches just because that's how I started the thread ignores the fact that we changed to discussing specifically attacks to the occiput and cervical spine, beginning with my first post to you on page 3. To arbitrarily change back to punches to the head in general is understandably confusing.

It's also understandable how your perception, like everyone's, is colored by your experience. Still, one person's anecdotal experience doesn't change years of consistently and objectively demonstrable findings in medical science regarding the anatomical and physiological vulnerability of the occipital ridge. You cite years of observing "fights" by what can only be assumed to be nonprofessional muggers and robbers as evidence that such concussive strikes do not happen very frequently. While perhaps a large, albeit purely anecdotal, sampling, such evidence completely ignores two important points. 1) I referred to surprise attacks by professional muggers, robbers, etc., not to typical testosterone/alcohol-driven fights by barroom yahoos, club rats and frat boys. 2) I didn't claim that it happened particularly often with respect to all types of attacks and strikes in every kind of physically violent situation, only that it was fairly common in professional assaults, which the crime reports corroborate.

So, among the sampling you're referencing, yes....I see where you get your view. However, unless you have spent a career as a violent crimes detective and further, dealt only with professional assaults, your personal experience isn't really a good sampling for what I'm talking about after all. I would agree with you (and the crime reports do not refute this) that such strikes are not necessarily more common than any other type when considering all types of physically violent situations, including every variation of what could be called a "fight".

[D_Glenn]

All this topic is really about is what the chinese call "bringing down and keeping the qi in the dantian" which covers the physiological and psychological aspect of being in that fight state. The best and quickest way that the Chinese teacher's use to teach this concept is to rush up and attack/ strike the student, this instinctively brings the qi into the dantian, and then they are told to maintain that state during their practice. After that first attack the teacher only has to start an attack as the student will never know if he's going to follow through, after time and with practice the student should be able to get into this state of mind, or rather mind and qi in the dantian at will by using their own 'intention' and without the outside stimulus. So I agree with Chris' idea but ideally everyone should already be passed the point of needing to be hit to re-inforce it but if they don't know what it really truly feels like (qi in dantian), then I could see how it would be an elusive skill. I would modify it to only 'you' the instructor doing the striking as you should have some sort of power over them already and actually get their insincts to work properly.


.

[ashe]

You cite years of observing "fights" by what can only be assumed to be nonprofessional muggers and robbers as evidence that such concussive strikes do not happen very frequently.

i'm inclined to agree with marty. it's hard to even get a good angle for a strike like that, short of sneaking up on someone from behind. you have to have some serious ability at "leading" to be able to use anything like that regularly, and at that point, the real skill is in the leading anyway.