How many of you...

[cloudz]

...drills where you start at a disadvantage - say being mounted, that I can understand better

Putting oneself at a tactical or positional disadvantage isn't what's being discussed here.

Maybe it should be, becaus that makes more sense than what's been discussed so far.

And really, playing semantics? If getting sucker punched properly doesn't put you at a positional or tactical disadvantage.. yea ok ok. whateva.

maybe you can ask your next attacker to politely not double leg you (or whatever else), but to gently tap you in the gut instead.

[BruceP]

I thought this discussion was about recovery and learning about the engine that drives it.

[Chris McKinley]

cloudz,

As a now-admitted troll, you've just rendered everything you have to offer as completely untrustworthy, no matter how accurate, poignant, practical or sage it might be. For all we know, you're a teen/early 20's punk whose only experience of combat is the safety of the sparring ring, if that. You've got a teacher that's got some halfway practical stuff and all of a sudden that apparently gives you leave to go make a jackass out of yourself and damage your teacher's reputation by association. I sure hope he's proud.

As if that weren't inherently stupid enough, you pick one of the few people on this entire board with a national reputation as a military/LEO combat instructor and who would most agree with your points of view in general to troll like a little newbie bitch. Congrats, dumbass.

[Chris McKinley]

dragontigerpalm,

RE: "Being able to respond effectively to surprise attacks where one takes the first strike needs to be trained but it has been my experience that such attacks rarely begin as frontal attacks to the face/head.". Yet that's predominantly where they do begin, according to actual crime report statistics. Further, please note that I didn't mention "face", although that's just as good, but the head in general.

RE: "Often surprise attacks are sucker punches to the back or side of the head or a shove neither of which are usually disabling though of course can be momentarily disorienting.". Actually, a strike to the back of the head is far more likely to result in disorientation and concussion, especially if the strike is to the occipital ridge and/or cervical spine.

[Ray]

To answer the initial question, yes. It's good training; the extreme referenced in one of the videos of getting cut to simulate or induce an injury is just short-sighted. You have to balance the benefit of experiencing disorientation and pain with how many of your men are now out of action or on disability due to pt. There are few organizations that have the luxury to do that.
Chris - correct me if I'm misreading you, but you're not talking about striking hard enough to cause mild concussions, right? FWIW, I've trained where we would punch someone hard enough in the solar plexus to cause mild spasm before partner exercises, sparring, etc. We also had a multi-person drill where one guy stands without moving in the center of a group and the others take turn attacking randomly. The lapse time between attacks varies with the skill of the group. The double-leg takedowns and tackles from behind were always a good way to start from behind the eight-ball. We did have to limit to kicks and punches when you're completely behind the center guy and he couldn't see you even with peripheral vision. It's all good training; just trying to make the other guy and yourself better.

[Bhassler]

It seems to me that there are two aspects of this sort of training, one being the physical components, the other being the mental/emotional.

I've done this and similar drills a few times (not much), and invariably find that I move much better after having been hit. My thought is that the dreaded taiji push-hands is actually great physical training for aspects of disorientation, being off-balance, etc. etc. that come about as physical components of this type of scenario (not the be-all end-all of training argument, just a statement that it's a useful component of functional combat training). Plus, by the time you've been caught with a nice committed shot to the head or body, you're right in ideal push-hands range, so all of my short strikes, throws, etc are available.

Relative to the mental/emotional aspect (what's happening, oh my god I'm gonna die, they're gonna kill my wife, etc), I'm not sure how effective this is since, as Chris said (pardon the paraphrase), I already know my training partner's not really out to hurt me. Personally, based on my own potentially fatal experiences, I don't seem to panic much, but I can't say as that's a result of any particular training as much as it's just how I'm wired. Certainly, one can increase the intensity gradually so a student would be calm under increasing amounts of pressure, but I'm not sure how much that's a product of decreasing sensitivity to a particular stimulus and how much is a fundamental shift in the emotional balance of the individual (so for example someone could fight 3 thugs with switchblades and remain calm but still panic and hit the accelerator when a dog runs in front of their car).

[somatai]

don't you think that "calm" becomes an energy one develops and a space one learns to come from and surely it is tested under stress and differently by different stressors, but my experience is that the more you "know" calm, not as a concept, but as a place, the more you are able to stay in that space, inhibit reaction/reflex regardless of the input or stimulator and then act with control and clarity in accord with the situation(granted that may be in the blink of an eye and not anything you conciously plan to do, but it is the inhibition of the reflex, that created the space to allow the appropriate response to manifest)....just my .2

[Bhassler]

...the more you "know" calm, not as a concept, but as a place, the more you are able to stay in that space, inhibit reaction/reflex...

I agree in general, but I'm not sure the mechanism is one of inhibition-- I would phrase it as more a letting go of acquired inhibitions that we hold to in daily activities but recognize as irrelevant under extreme duress (which would imply that in reality those inhibitions may be basically irrelevant, anyways).

[somatai]

...the more you "know" calm, not as a concept, but as a place, the more you are able to stay in that space, inhibit reaction/reflex...

I agree in general, but I'm not sure the mechanism is one of inhibition-- I would phrase it as more a letting go of acquired inhibitions that we hold to in daily activities but recognize as irrelevant under extreme duress (which would imply that in reality those inhibitions may be basically irrelevant, anyways).

I am using inhibition in the sense that Alexander used it, it is often thought of as a pejorative, but in this context is the ability to override habituated subconcious response....in other words having the internal control to be totaly present and so volitional in all movements, not reflexive or habituated movement, but fresh, free chosen....this requires the inhibition of the pre-wired response.....over riding subcortical responses which disappear altogether as they are let go by not being feed the energy to emerge....they disappear altogehter and the sense of calm deepens and clarifies as a result of the lack of disonance and a clearer bodyfilter

[Ray]

somatai,
Am not sure what you mean by "energy," but I find that the more you do something, the less stressful it becomes. So, maybe, I'm looking at it as the stressor being a condition that I know and not the "calm." Obviously, we're not training with real attackers with switchblades on the wife as pointed out by bhassler, but working scenarios or with sims or something at stake help to develop the comfort zone with stressors. OTOH, I do have some reservations with the gaming I see in tournament fighting where there is something at stake.

[cloudz]

I thought this discussion was about recovery and learning about the engine that drives it.

ok.. again with the semantics. my point still applies. you recover or don't, the timing of it or how you set up to take it doesn't change that.

[somatai]

i came late and have not read it all, i was caught and interested by the aspect of what is teh mind that is appropriate for all these situations, regardless of context?
i get that playing out the particular dramas educates and prepares, but i think the state of mind we are looking for is a universal and can be found many ways, it is a question of once finding it, developing and deepening our presence and ability to come from it. not intending to derail the thread, just was interested in that bit that emerged

[cloudz]

cloudz,

As a now-admitted troll, you've just rendered everything you have to offer as completely untrustworthy, no matter how accurate, poignant, practical or sage it might be. For all we know, you're a teen/early 20's punk whose only experience of combat is the safety of the sparring ring, if that. You've got a teacher that's got some halfway practical stuff and all of a sudden that apparently gives you leave to go make a jackass out of yourself and damage your teacher's reputation by association. I sure hope he's proud.

As if that weren't inherently stupid enough, you pick one of the few people on this entire board with a national reputation as a military/LEO combat instructor and who would most agree with your points of view in general to troll like a little newbie bitch. Congrats, dumbass.

How could i not dream of living up to your definition of a troll.. if your definition means questioning your own sage ideas regards training. Becasue that's all I'm doing. people always talk about trolls when they can't hack the scrutiny.

Your reputation hasn't reached these shores I'm afraid. Neither do I know anything about you. So sorry you don't earn automatic respect, i go by what you write, which isn't up to all that much - so maybe your game ai'nt as tight as you beleive, or your own self image is inflated - I don't know. I've responded to your thread and you havn't made any good points to refute mine. So maybe consider you don't have any holy grails and aren't any more "special" in your knowledge than any one else in the field of martial arts instruction. Who you instruct doesn't make a blind bit of difference.. There are thousands and thousands of people just as clued up and expereinced as you, if not better.

so whatever, this dumbass is not intimidated by you or your bitchy little tones. whoever the fuck you are.

[nianfong]

settle down, kids.

[Chris McKinley]

Ray,

RE: "Chris - correct me if I'm misreading you, but you're not talking about striking hard enough to cause mild concussions, right?". Correct. In fact, that's why I specifically and explicitly warned people to be careful not to strike so hard as to cause a concussion. As a former neurophysiologist, it would be supremely irresponsible and unethical not to caution against the dangers that causing unconsciousness in training can bring.

You also have to watch that gut shot, too. I'm not saying you should go nancying back to the other end of the spectrum (that's what got us where we are in the first place), but simply to be aware of what's possible for training safety. Remember, Houdini famously died from internal hemorrhaging due to an unprepared punch to the solar plexus. So I say, try out different variations of the training, just be intelligent and careful in doing so. Remember, the goal of training is to preserve the life and health of the practitioners, not put it at unnecessary risk.