Momentum = power

[rojcewiczj]

To Spread is to circulate the Qi (Momentum) in my body, to spread it upon his strength so he cannot move freely.

To Cover is to use my Qi (Momentum)to cover the point of his attack.

To Confront is to use my Qi (Momentum) to match his approach precisely.

To Swallow is to use my Qi (Momentum) to receive and transform his power completely.

-Four Word Secret Formula By Wu Yu Xiang
Translation taken from T.Y. Pang's book "On Tai Chi Chaun"

Above, I've inserted the word "momentum" next to "Qi" so as to insinuate that the word Qi in this context can be understood as momentum.
Momentum is power, more mass, more motion, more power. Practice to be able to generate maximum momentum from any position. Forms
should be momentum dances, drills should be momentum drills, sparring should be my momentum vs your momentum. What does your movement matter
without momentum? Throwing a ball, swinging a bat, running, whatever the movement there is momentum present. So why speak of styles and techniques and movement
methods as if they are not all subject to the laws of momentum and that power is not ultimately hinging on the momentum generated?

[Bao]

I like your thinking about "momentum". Good approach and it makes sense.

[Dmitri]

Speaking of momentum does seem productive or helpful at all, to me. It's just as vague as speaking of "qi", -- but it's actually even worse, because at least "qi" people can substitute with all sorts of stuff, and some of it might accidentally match/make sense , whereas with "momentum" there is no wiggle room. It's a strictly-defined physics term (mass times velocity), and in that role, your above substitutions make (at least to me) no sense whatsoever.

How on earth would one "circulate momentum in one's body, spreading it upon the opponent's strength"?

If anything, IMA movement is "anti-momentum", because momentum-based movement ideas directly imply committed "throwing of mass" at your target, like what some of the boxing, muai thai, etc. (most EMA) do. With IMA you remain within yourself "projecting force" outward, while maintaining your "central equilibrium". If there is a (forward) momentum with my punch, there is no "central equilibrium" by definition. And without "central equilibrium" -- there is no IMA, also by definition.

That's the mechanical side of things; he is speaking of "qi" specifically on purpose, meaning exactly it, not something else. But I'll let windwalker have a field day here, with the energetic side of it.

[klonk]

I think substituting "momentum" for "qi" makes sense here. Qi is a big shapeless bag of a word, it can mean nearly anything. What it means in a given instance has huge dependencies on cultural context and situational meaning that may baffle those of us not steeped in Chinese thought and culture.

Qi can mean anything from an esoteric unseen life force, for the philosophically pretentious, to simply the right way of doing something.

[Bao]

If anything, IMA movement is "anti-momentum", because momentum-based movement ideas directly imply committed "throwing of mass" at your target, like what some of the boxing, muai thai, etc. (most EMA) do. With IMA you remain within yourself "projecting force" outward, while maintaining your "central equilibrium". If there is a (forward) momentum with my punch, there is no "central equilibrium" by definition. And without "central equilibrium" -- there is no IMA, also by definition.

Well... I don't agree with your view ... or the way you present it, whatever. A punch means that your arm comes flying forward. It doesn't mean that your whole body needs to fly forward. Western Boxing is throwing a whole mass regardless it has balance or a base. Tai Chi is throwing something with mass from a center. Very different things. Body follow he yi, the body has momentum. Anything in movement has momentum. Adjusting any posture, even if it's just from "kai" to "he", there's still movement.

Ah forget it... it's just words anyway.

... But I'll let windwalker have a field day here, with the energetic side of it.

Well, I hope he will visit this thread and clear things up...

[Dmitri]

Anything in movement has momentum.

Exactly; it makes the whole thing completely useless/not helpful in expressing or understanding anything, IMO.

"ah, forget it..."

"it's just words anyway" -- Yes. On an internet forum, words are the usual medium... unless we're talking about Mrs Johansson, that is.

[Bao]

On an internet forum, words are the usual medium... unless we're talking about Mrs Johansson, that is.

Very true! Mrs Johansson creates pleasant images. "Qi" and "momentum" are abstract. Don't create images at all.

Well.. I'll just try to forget the "r"...

[johnwang]

momentum-based movement ideas directly imply committed "throwing of mass" at your target,

I have thinking about this issue seriously lately. In my "rhino guard" training, when I use my "rhino guard" to block/deflect my opponent's punch, I can

1. just move my arm without moving my body.
2. rotate my Dantien/waist/hip/Kua to "drag" my arm. When I rotate my Daintien/waist/hip/Kua to my right/left, my arms will be dragged to my left/right.

So which approach (1 or 2) is better?

It seems to me that "committed throwing of mass at your target" can be used in "offense", but should we always have to use it during "offense"? Also should we use it in "defense" such as just trying to block/deflect a punch? IMO, it may look cool or "high level" to use it when playing defense. But since it means "commitment". It may not be a good idea sometime.

Are you using "committed throwing of mass at your target" when a fly is moving in front of you and you try to kill it with both of your hands? Will you let your hands to lead your body at that moment?

[windwalker]

Speaking of momentum does seem productive or helpful at all, to me. It's just as vague as speaking of "qi", -- but it's actually even worse, because at least "qi" people can substitute with all sorts of stuff, and some of it might accidentally match/make sense , whereas with "momentum" there is no wiggle room. It's a strictly-defined physics term (mass times velocity), and in that role, your above substitutions make (at least to me) no sense whatsoever.

How on earth would one "circulate momentum in one's body, spreading it upon the opponent's strength"?

If anything, IMA movement is "anti-momentum", because momentum-based movement ideas directly imply committed "throwing of mass" at your target, like what some of the boxing, muai thai, etc. (most EMA) do. With IMA you remain within yourself "projecting force" outward, while maintaining your "central equilibrium". If there is a (forward) momentum with my punch, there is no "central equilibrium" by definition. And without "central equilibrium" -- there is no IMA, also by definition.

That's the mechanical side of things; he is speaking of "qi" specifically on purpose, meaning exactly it, not something else. But I'll let windwalker have a field day here, with the energetic side of it.

did someone mention my name.

If you think of the body as liquid in a container the idea of transferring momentum works very well, as well as explaining some things that some may have problems with.

With IMA you remain within yourself "projecting force" outward, while maintaining your "central equilibrium". If there is a (forward) momentum with my punch, there is no "central equilibrium" by definition. And without "central equilibrium" -- there is no IMA, also by definition.

this might be your definition, its one I would not use. If all points on a sphere are equal then expanding any one point or emptying any point will effect anything touching it, provided its within the spheres influence. What you mentioned is only the momentum of the arm attached to a body, try pulling the back, back as the fist reaches its contact point.
This must happen at the same time, in balance.

Do this while moving the whole body forward "mass" and this is whole body power and also keeps to the idea of "central equilibrium" I hope you can see the difference, by using momentum itself, one does not have to comment ones mass, but one must be able to allow it to pass through unobstructed. 6 harmonies, 5 bows. ect.

In this sense instead of impacting with the momentum of the body delivered by the body directly, we generated it inside and allow the body to be a conductor of it. This would account for the different "feel" of it as for most their bodies will respond to this, but their minds may not comprehend whats happening.
The yin/yang point must be maintained in order not to block or restrict the flow. I use the term "zero point" this insures that what one is dealing with is not the structure.

a good way to prove this is to get a plumb bob,
swing it in one hand and lightly touch someone with the other.

allow the plumb bob to swing ahead of the body, move the body after it reaches the apex of the swing while touching the other person.
If done correctly one should find that the other person is moved quite easily by just a light contact.They should feel very little if any direct force.

There are some other factors this should be enough to play around with.
If one is late or early they will also feel the difference. The inner momentum must be allowed to travel though the body.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... ez4o#t=212

watch what this teacher does.
There other things involved as talked about on other threads.
As "Bodywork" wrote a lot things and concepts should be able to be explained with the terminologies that we use in the west.
Of course there are some points that may not translate so well or be explained as easily.

Just sharing some ideas, in discussion....

Not here to debate, argue or prove,
either one tries it and it works or
it doesnt. Either way one wont know until, one tries it.

[windwalker]

To Spread is to circulate the Qi (Momentum) in my body, to spread it upon his strength so he cannot move freely.

To Cover is to use my Qi (Momentum)to cover the point of his attack.

To Confront is to use my Qi (Momentum) to match his approach precisely.

To Swallow is to use my Qi (Momentum) to receive and transform his power completely.

-Four Word Secret Formula By Wu Yu Xiang
Translation taken from T.Y. Pang's book "On Tai Chi Chaun"

Above, I've inserted the word "momentum" next to "Qi" so as to insinuate that the word Qi in this context can be understood as momentum.
Momentum is power, more mass, more motion, more power. Practice to be able to generate maximum momentum from any position. Forms
should be momentum dances, drills should be momentum drills, sparring should be my momentum vs your momentum. What does your movement matter
without momentum? Throwing a ball, swinging a bat, running, whatever the movement there is momentum present. So why speak of styles and techniques and movement
methods as if they are not all subject to the laws of momentum and that power is not ultimately hinging on the momentum generated?

This will only work until a point is reached where it wont make any sense.
In all the classics they talk of using no force. and from no force one has great force.
The main point IMO is how one is supposed to generate, control and use this "momentum"

Its kind of counter intuitive as most are used to making power, instead of understanding how to be conduit of it.

[wayne hansen]

I like two cmc,s expressions

Swing and sway = perpetual motion

Momente. = momentum without wind up

[Dmitri]

should we always have to use it during...

IME there is no "choice" involved; once you move "that way", all other movement just feels "wrong"/empty. After a certain point in training, it can't be helped.

body unification means "commitment"

I don't agree, but we might mean different things by "body unification". Which is fine.

Are you using "momentum" when a fly is moving in front of you and you try to kill it with both of your hands?

That's disgusting, I would never try anything like that...

I see what you're asking, but it's not about me "using momentum"; fighting IMHO is about creating momentum in my opponent's body. It can be done in a non-committal manner and that's what IMA practice (at least IME) promotes.

[rojcewiczj]

"circulate momentum in one's body, spreading it upon the opponent's strength"
What this meas is keeping your body moving even though you're contacting your opponent. They try to use strength directly, while you make your movement, generating momentum and letting the momentum do the work.

If you want an image, I like to think of this story about a man and a wheel. The wheel is just standing there on its tire, its a very ordinary wheel with a black rubber tire, the man walks up to it and kick it and it rolls away. The man comes back the next day and the same wheel is rolling towards him, except now there are three more wheels connected to it, and in-between and above these wheels is a whole car. The car rolls into the man at fifty miles per hour and breaks many bones in his body, nearly killing him. During his extended stay in the hospital the man thinks over what happened. "What strange method did that wheel use when it came looking for revenge? Taiji? Bagua? There was certainly rotation at work, an inner structure with a clear axis, and that Iron body was exceptional!" After many months of considering the event from every angle as he lies in his hospital bed waiting for his bones to heal, he finally give up on trying to understand what method the wheel used; "it must have inherited some secret method from a great master" he thinks. Right at that moment, a faulty fire alarm falls from the ceiling and knocks him dead. When the doctor returns to the room and sees the mark on the mans head and the fire alarm lying near by, he shakes his head and says "well its quite obvious what killed him....a vital point strike from that faulty xingyi master".

I'll stop the story here. Although, if you don't mind me spoiling the ending, it turns out momentum was the killer the whole time.

[dspyrido]

I'll stop the story here. Although, if you don't mind me spoiling the ending, it turns out momentum was the killer the whole time.

Good story. How would the ending look if:

- The guy stuck a pair of scissors in a power point? Did momentum kill him?
- How about if he went for a swim and drowned? Was it the momentum of the water that blocked his air passages?
- What about when he was lying on his hospital bed and someone jumps up with a gorilla mask, gives him a heart attack, then was it the momentum of the gorilla mask on his intention?

In the end I am suspecting the term chi was banded around because there are many many applications of force/energy/other and the writers could not be assed trying to explain them all (or did not know them).

So in replacing the nebulous term of chi with a term like momentum is that you can then get a grasp of a part of what the author was trying to communicate. Albeit probably a big part and probably a very useful part but after a while of training it you kind of have to accept that the momentum stuff was a good start but it was missing the following .....

[rojcewiczj]

I'll stop the story here. Although, if you don't mind me spoiling the ending, it turns out momentum was the killer the whole time.

Good story. How would the ending look if:

- The guy stuck a pair of scissors in a power point? Did momentum kill him?
- How about if he went for a swim and drowned? Was it the momentum of the water that blocked his air passages?
- What about when he was lying on his hospital bed and someone jumps up with a gorilla mask, gives him a heart attack, then was it the momentum of the gorilla mask on his intention?

In the end I am suspecting the term chi was banded around because there are many many applications of force/energy/other and the writers could not be assed trying to explain them all (or did not know them).

So in replacing the nebulous term of chi with a term like momentum is that you can then get a grasp of a part of what the author was trying to communicate. Albeit probably a big part and probably a very useful part but after a while of training it you kind of have to accept that the momentum stuff was a good start but it was missing the following .....

Well, of course the alternative ways of death you mention are not ways so directly related to momentum as the ones contained in my story; although, mass is in some motion in all three. When a car hits someone while going at high speed, is it really relevant to discuss its electrical system? If the man is terrified by the approaching car, would one say that terror broke his bones? Of course not. My point is that as a martial artist I want to build my energy and help others build up there's in a way that can be physically realized. I don't practice electrocuting people or things, I don't practice trying to terrify people to death, I practice working with momentum because its a way that we really can work with energy, that we really can grow towards grace and power. I feel like martial arts is in many ways suffering from a lack of clarity in regards to what exactly is being practiced.