what's this baguazhang master doing

[windwalker]

0:04 and 0:07 into this clip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYHk15btS1I
and 0:05 into this clip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Jl4-0RaG9k

Again, very different things happening there. First clip, I have no idea about what's happening there. The second clip, or beginning of the Huang clip looks much more physical. The student put his weight against the teacher, the teacher intercept the movement and return this movement against the him. ...And ... appearently, the students have had some rolling practice as well... But there's not something strange within the technique in itself. You could learn it as well and push away people with your stomach.

I would say each clip is the same, just a different application being shown used.
He opens and closes, while moving his center out into and beyond the student.

its not a matter of pushing with his stomach, its only a contact point. he can use any point
as the other teacher does to do the same. in taiji it is said "the whole body is the hand"

[bruce]

I wouldnt, I would let them feel it and then help them to understand what happened, and show them that they could also do it
as I am sure you and many here could do it with a little coaching or maybe different outlook.

In brief she opens, in the first movement, then closes while rotating towards the direction she wants the student to be bounced to.
at the point of contact, the students force is going one way, she makes a small circle yin/yang just using her pinky for the contact point.
This is the force that is throwing them out.

not going to get into the many other things that have to happen to allow this to happen. axes, cross body alignment, ect.
notice how the students continue to spin after being touched by the teacher.

I work with people all the time showing them how many of the same things are done, even being shown and feeling it, many are skeptical
until they reach a point of true understanding. That is, they give up trying to compare it to the way they did / do things and accept that
there are other ways of using the mind/body to cause reactions in others.

It is funny, even in her clip, often people dont believe it.
Those doing it, and those its being done on. The common reaction is "really, did I just do that your not faking it"
The person doing it, often can not feel what they are allowing/causing to happen, the person its being done to reactions are also dependent on how clear their intent is.
With high level people they can compensate and do this to most people, others not having the skill or experiences yet may find it more difficult

Its a static practice allowing people to feel concepts put in use with in a certain context.

I truly dont understand why you and the many here can not see what she and others like her do, and just try it.
My bet would be that with a little trial and error most would get it...Of course whether its useful or not is another matter.

thanks for your comments. i agree feeling is the best way but can't it be described with words (in english)?

can you name the "it" you want us to try?

i should have asked "how would you write a note on a postcard to a lay person explaining what she and her students are showing and doing in this video?

i appreciate some of the ideas show. in her videos. my questions do not mean i am closed minded they mean i am curious.

i do not understand the end goal of how they integrate these skill into self defense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzYCqNnMlz8 here is another video of her.

[windwalker]

thanks for your comments. i agree feeling is the best way but can't it be described with words (in english)?

can you name the "it" you want us to try?

i should have asked "how would you write a note on a postcard to a lay person explaining what she and her students are showing and doing in this video?

i appreciate some of the ideas show. in her videos. my questions do not mean i am closed minded they mean i am curious.

i do not understand the end goal of how they integrate these skill into self defense.

I dont want anyone to try anything
If one is curious about what is seen, they should try to "do" it and figure it out.


Its not about a "lay person" its about you "gen sense" and what you can see or not.

For those of us that can see and do get it, it should be pretty apparent even if some might not agree on the methods by which its done.
With out understanding or being able to do the first part, speaking of SD usage or any other usage
is kind of waste of time.

1. understand what one wants to be able to do
2. find some one who can do it, or train enough to figure it out
3. integrate this new understanding / ability into ones skill sets and goals of practice

this is really about all I can say, others may have a better way of articulating it

this might be a good place to start
http://sifuondemand.com/live

[wingchun]

0:04 and 0:07 into this clip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYHk15btS1I
and 0:05 into this clip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Jl4-0RaG9k

The second clip, or beginning of the Huang clip looks much more physical. The student put his weight against the teacher, the teacher intercept the movement and return this movement against the him. You could learn it as well and push away people with your stomach.

How would you explain the bio mechanics and mental intention involved to do this? is it just an application of Peng Jin?

In brief she opens, in the first movement. He opens and closes, while moving his center out into and beyond the student.

Do you mean shifting one's weight from the back leg onto the front leg to move one's center forward out into and beyond the student?

[D_Glenn]

both clips have been shown before
I hope people can talk about whats shown and not
try to disparage the teacher or her practice. .

pick a point on the either of the clips.
This would make it easier to discuses
The teacher in the clips referenced is Ms. Bian Zhiqin.
small write up included with the clip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYHk15btS1I

Ms. Bian Zhiqin is the 20th generation disciple of Chen-style Taiji and the 6th generation disciples of Wu-style Taiji.
In this video, Ms. Bian Zhiqin was teaching students of push hand by inside force of the taiji action
QQ group number is: 39825339.
Welcome to the blog of Ms. Bian Zhiqin:
http://blog.sina.com.cn/bzqtaiji
If anybody want to reprint the video, please also reprint above information together. Thank you.

This blog page may shed some light on the controversial Ms. Bian clips a few years back in China:

http://liuguo1955.blog.163.com/blog/sta ... 102826878/

Thanks for the link. Interesting, very interesting.

Just a quick read through but basically the author has to jump through hoops over a weeks time just to get to touch hands with her, but when he finally gets the chance he easily does a Lu and 边稚琴 Bian Zhiqin actually falls down forward and then she makes some excuses then he's ushered out. Which leaves this guy wondering how this Grandmaster of Taijiquan could be so easily countered by himself, who'd only been studying TJQ for about 3 months. So he leaves and goes searching for more answers.

She claims that her lineage comes from 李经梧 Li Jingwu who died in 1997 but it turns out she's actually a student of 阎芳 Yan Fang, who is, or claims to be the head gate keeper of Li Jingwu's lineage but that also turns out to be exaggerated . It's all just a <quote> 鬼把戏 Guibaxi (a dirty trick) <endquote>.

真假, 假真 Zhen jia, jia zhen (What's real has become fake, now what's fake has become real.)


.

[lazyboxer]

This blog page may shed some light on the controversial Ms. Bian clips a few years back in China:

http://liuguo1955.blog.163.com/blog/sta ... 102826878/

This really is a miserable and disgraceful business. It is almost unbelievable that one of Bian's students was proud that although nothing happened at first when she tried to move him she could make him fly easily after only six months of training. One of their precepts is that the deeper your gongfu the higher you can jump when she touches you.

It looks like a kind of mass mental illness, no doubt aided and abetted by local Communist Party authorities since it rewards compliance and obedience, while it also seems to penalize free enquiry and originality.

[windwalker]

This blog page may shed some light on the controversial Ms. Bian clips a few years back in China:

http://liuguo1955.blog.163.com/blog/sta ... 102826878/

This really is a miserable and disgraceful business. It is almost unbelievable that one of Bian's students was proud that although nothing happened at first when she tried to move him she could make him fly easily after only six months of training. One of their precepts is that the deeper your gongfu the higher you can jump when she touches you.

It looks like a kind of mass mental illness, no doubt aided and abetted by local Communist Party authorities since it rewards compliance and obedience, while it also seems to penalize free enquiry and originality.

wow really,,,you get all that from some clips.
of course rather then address the question some would rather attack the teacher.

One of their precepts is that the deeper your gongfu the higher you can jump when she touches you.

how do you know this?

[dspyrido]

Once again we walk into EF like ability. Once again we ask the same questions and once again we end up with the same impasse.

For the sake of progress lets try to do something different. How about an experiment we can all try or a video that shows it works on a non-initiate non-groomed semi competant fighter? Or any other creative suggestions vs the "it's real and I don't have to proove it, it cant be explained etc etc".

[lazyboxer]

This blog page may shed some light on the controversial Ms. Bian clips a few years back in China:

http://liuguo1955.blog.163.com/blog/sta ... 102826878/

This really is a miserable and disgraceful business. It is almost unbelievable that one of Bian's students was proud that although nothing happened at first when she tried to move him she could make him fly easily after only six months of training. One of their precepts is that the deeper your gongfu the higher you can jump when she touches you.

It looks like a kind of mass mental illness, no doubt aided and abetted by local Communist Party authorities since it rewards compliance and obedience, while it also seems to penalize free enquiry and originality.

wow really,,,you get all that from some clips.
of course rather then address the question some would rather attack the teacher.

One of their precepts is that the deeper your gongfu the higher you can jump when she touches you.

how do you know this?

I was referring to a statement by the author of the cited blog entry at http://liuguo1955.blog.163.com/blog/static/1307776592012424102826878/. It's in Chinese, and I'm assuming I understood it correctly. Perhaps you have a better translation.

Do you think the author might have made the whole thing up? I myself think it unlikely.

[windwalker]

Once again we walk into EF like ability. Once again we ask the same questions and once again we end up with the same impasse.

For the sake of progress lets try to do something different. How about an experiment we can all try or a video that shows it works on a non-initiate non-groomed semi competant fighter? Or any other creative suggestions vs the "it's real and I don't have to proove it, it cant be explained etc etc".

try this



followed by this



the fist works on understanding what we mean when we talk about "intention"
the second, talks about leading "it", with out mentioning intention.

another way of looking at it.

In order to win, we should operate at a faster tempo or rhythm than our adversaries--or, better yet, get inside [the] adversary's Observation-Orientation-Decision-Action time cycle or loop. ... Such activity will make us appear ambiguous (unpredictable) thereby generate confusion and disorder among our adversaries--since our adversaries will be unable to generate mental images or pictures that agree with the menacing as well as faster transient rhythm or patterns they are competing against.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop

[D_Glenn]

真假, 假真 Zhen jia, jia zhen (What's real has become fake, now what's fake has become real.).

And ?

whats the point.
I'd be careful about the "real" and fake unless your willing
to accept visitors.

There is another saying in Chinese

whats real looks often looks fake

That's actually a mistranslation.

真假難辨 Zhenjiannanbian should actually be translated as 'It's often difficult to tell a forgery from something authentic.' or 'Hard to distinguish something real from it's imitation.'

And it's like the meticulously crafted but copied "Ancient" Pottery, or forged paintings.
A legitimate antique pottery dealer has had to have spent years seeing, holding, examining and possessing dozens and dozens of real authentic pieces of pottery in order to know what he's looking at.
One of the first clues that antique dealers understand is that real and authentic things are extremely rare.

Real authentic Internal Martial Arts is a rare thing because-

A) a lot of Chinese people have died without having properly passing their knowledge and bodily skills down to someone;
and B)passing it down means finding a student who will actually physically do the sheer amount of hard work and actual fighting that it takes to develop the proper Internal Martial Art, which in turn is also a mentally arduous life as it takes so much time out of everyday that it's like a second job.

So you have millions of people who don't even know what real authentic IMA is, how in the world could we expect them to tell a carefully and meticulously crafted Chinese forgery from the real thing.

China is essentially built upon the profits of manufacturing and selling antique forgeries, so it's a given aspect of it's society and the derogatory term 'Jianghu' has been given to a describe this whole aspect or side of the Chinese world.


.

[windwalker]

真假, 假真 Zhen jia, jia zhen (What's real has become fake, now what's fake has become real.).

And ?

whats the point.
I'd be careful about the "real" and fake unless your willing
to accept visitors.

There is another saying in Chinese

whats real looks often looks fake

That's actually a mistranslation.

真假難辨 Zhenjiannanbian should actually be translated as 'It's often difficult to tell a forgery from something authentic.' or 'Hard to distinguish something real from it's imitation.'

And it's like the meticulously crafted but copied "Ancient" Pottery, or forged paintings.
A legitimate antique pottery dealer has had to have spent years seeing, holding, examining and possessing dozens and dozens of real authentic pieces of pottery in order to know what he's looking at.
One of the first clues that antique dealers understand is that real and authentic things are extremely rare.

Real authentic Internal Martial Arts is a rare thing because-

A) a lot of Chinese people have died without having properly passing their knowledge and bodily skills down to someone;
and B)passing it down means finding a student who will actually physically do the sheer amount of hard work and actual fighting that it takes to develop the proper Internal Martial Art, which in turn is also a mentally arduous life as it takes so much time out of everyday that it's like a second job.

So you have millions of people who don't even know what real authentic IMA is, how in the world could we expect them to tell a carefully and meticulously crafted Chinese forgery from the real thing.

China is essentially built upon the profits of manufacturing and selling antique forgeries, so it's a given aspect of it's society and the derogatory term 'Jianghu' has been given to a describe this whole aspect or side of the Chinese world.


.

could be me, I looked for this in this thread cant find it, maybe you can point it out?

maybe you thought this thread was this thread
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=23136&p=389612&hilit=whats+real+looks+fake#p389612

I never really quite get your points, and what seem to be slights on peoples work regardless of whether you feel its correct or not.
you do a lot of translations thats been noted. whats the point of the other shit.

Why not allow others to judge for themselves or better yet go out and find their
own answers instead of trying to be the answer.

"whats real looks often looks fake"

was related to me by a native speaker, it there's a problem with it I suggest you
get with some native speakers and take it up with them.

Real authentic Internal Martial Arts is a rare thing because-

there are very few that achieve it but many who market it.

what ever "it" is, tends to accord with what one looks for, seeks, and understands.
if one does not understand what they'er looking for or expect,
how would they know whether they've found it or not.

Someone on the internet?

[D_Glenn]

could be me, I looked for this in this thread cant find it, maybe you can point it out?

maybe you thought this thread was this thread
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=23136&p=389612&hilit=whats+real+looks+fake#p389

Yep I'm pretty sure that's the same you. Unless you have multiple personalities or something, which if that's the case, it's the other windwalker.

I posted my reply here because the same videos came up in this thread.

I never really quite get your points, and what seem to be slights on peoples work regardless of whether you feel its correct or not.
you do a lot of translations thats been noted. whats the point of the other shit.

Why not allow others to judge for themselves or better yet go out and find their
own answers instead of trying to be the answer.

"whats real looks often looks fake"

was related to me by a native speaker, it there's a problem with it I suggest you
get with some native speakers and take it up with them.

What I've written above, about 真假難辨 Zhenjiannanbian, is what a Native Chinese Mandarin Speaking guy told me.

Real authentic Internal Martial Arts is a rare thing because-

there are very few that achieve it but many who market it.

what ever "it" is, tends to accord with what one looks for, seeks, and understands.
if one does not understand what they'er looking for or expect,
how would they know whether they've found it or not.

You point out a very important Traveling to China to study CIMA Warning: Before even applying for a Visa, know who it is exactly that you are going to be studying CIMA with. If you just up and go there and ask nearly any Chinese person where you can find a good CIMA teacher, he will probably have some cousin who teaches it. "Has studied it for years..." etc.

.

[windwalker]

windwalker wrote:
could be me, I looked for this in this thread cant find it, maybe you can point it out?

maybe you thought this thread was this thread
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=23136&p=389612&hilit=whats+real+looks+fake#p389

Yep I'm pretty sure that's the same you. Unless you have multiple personalities or something, which if that's the case, it's the other windwalker.

read much, I didnt say it was not me, only that it was not in this thread
if your going to use, you should make it clear