Books about Wind-and-Fire Wheels

[Pretender]

Wind-and-fire wheels; feng huo lun. I'm mildly obsessed with artistic visual (mis)interpretations of this weapon. I have tried to find more information about this weapon and it's practical usage so I can bring it across in text form faithfully, logically and accurately. However, I have a hard time doing so. There have been a few demonstration videos in Taijiquan forms, but given that it's got such a different geometry from most other weapons, I have a hard time interpreting the context of the forms themselves.



I have found two books, by the same author; Steve L. Sun. Tai Chi Chuan Wind and Fire Wheels and Advanced ~. According to the one review I have found for this book, it seems like Steve L. Sun knows what he's talking about, but I'd much rather be able to reference two or three different authors. I've heard it said that the forms had to be reinvented by Steve L. Sun as well because the original Taijiquan forms were lost?

Are there more books that I can find on the subject of Wind and Fire Wheels? Right now, the only other times Wind and Fire Wheels turn up is as a name for a technique for Chinese Saber fighting. Books about chakrams and sun-and-moon-rings are of course just as welcome, though I'd prefer to stick closer to the original styles, particularly Baguazhang to contrast with Steve L. Sun's style.

To clarify, I'm not looking to practice with Wind-and-Fire Wheels, yet. The books are going to serve as a source of inspiration for something I'm writing. I might take training once I fully appreciate the theory.

EDIT: Depending on whether I can get my hands on authentic training tools, I might toy with the speculation on my part that certain tonfa forms could be translated into beating and binding techniques for wind-and-fire wheels, given the weight distribution compared to the hands and wrists (slightly off from the knuckle's center, as opposed to typical, sword like weapons). However, that is dependent on whether my guesses on the weight distribution are accurate or not.

[GrahamB]

"the original taijiquan forms were lost"? I think you're stretching there.

The weapon is usually associated with Bagua, however, I wonder if it's more a case of them having (folk) religious/ceremonial use, rather than practical. Art for arts sake, perhaps.

The best advice on how to use bladed weapons is "take the pointy end and stick it in 'em!"

[Finny]

I remember seeing those in that famous pic..

the idea of actually using them strikes me as pretty laughable, but that's just me

[Pretender]

"the original taijiquan forms were lost"? I think you're stretching there.

I am not the one who said this, I should note. I am merely referencing what other people have said about Steve L. Sun's work. I apologize if that seems presumptuous.

The weapon is usually associated with Bagua, however, I wonder if it's more a case of them having (folk) religious/ceremonial use, rather than practical. Art for arts sake, perhaps.

The best advice on how to use bladed weapons is "take the pointy end and stick it in 'em!"

I completely agree. However, given that the center of gravity lies out of alignment with the grip, I imagine that sticking them with the pointy end might cause the weapon to slip out of that alignment further.

On the other hand, all wind-and-fire wheels and sun-and-moon rings are portrayed with an inner guard. Such a guard would only have evolved for the purpose of sparring or by a creator who seeks to inject realism into what is supposed to be a merely symbolic piece of gear. I am slightly curious to the various forms that the weapon takes, since they seem to come in various sizes and shapes, some more decorous than others;





EDIT: On the other hand, all these weapons seem to have very unpleasant looking flat grips, which would point to them not being designed for comfort.

[wiesiek]

hmm
Isn`t it another example of the robust Klingon`s armoury ?
Usage for earthly creatures highly limited .

[Doc Stier]

In each of the following examples of this weapon's usage, I see nothing beyond the a slight modification of their primary style's hand forms or techniques to accomodate the size and shape of the weapon, but not really a unique form set designed specifically for this weapon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOJrch325L0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dq4ed2MCCiU

[wayne hansen]

Stevie boy Reinvented!

[KEND]

In the TCC version he seems to be just doing the form holding the wheels. In the CLF you can see where trapping, countering , slashing can be used. Learnt some basics in Shaolin but frankly they didn't interest me too much.

[edededed]

Frankly, the market for books about the wind and fire wheels is probably extremely small - Steve L. Sun was able to write a book about them by putting them on the tai chi bandwagon, I guess (since the tai chi market, on the other hand, is fairly big).

Some baguazhang lines use this weapon (Liang style, Cheng style of Liu Bin, I think), but other Chinese martial arts use them, too. I doubt that taijiquan traditionally had these weapons, though! Some books in Chinese have sections on this weapon - I think there was a bagua book by Liu Xinghan, and another by Li Gongcheng, but I can't remember the titles offhand...

[kenneth fish]

The Wind and Fire Wheels are associated with Buddhist martial arts in China - there are depictions of them in Shaolin temple art that ostensibly dates to the Ming dynasty. In addition, it is not uncommon to see statuary of martially oriented figures (lohans and such) in Buddhist temples weilding these weapons. Lastly, there are many early references to and depictions of very similar weapons in Indian literature and art, so their true origin may lay in Southeast Asia.

[Graculus]

If you haven't already seen it, you might be interested in this translation by Joseph Crandall:

http://www.smilingtiger.net/Cloud%20House%20Sun%20and%20Moon%20Wheels.pdf

Graculus
http://www.ichijoji.blogspot.com

[wiesiek]

Isn`t it just fancy lookin` piece, invented to atract ancient students?

Paper is patient anyway,
description of the form doesn`t tell anything about actual application/advantage of the Wheels ,
for me, if it is "real deal", - purpouse of it - is in the mist .

[D_Glenn]

The Sun & Moon Wheels/ Rings (Ziwu Lun; Lun (wheel of life, etc. in Buddhism as Ken already mentioned)). The large outer ring/ wheel, in the past, was like a double-edged sword, only made into a ring and then connected end to end where the handle is. So the inside of the big circle (sun) is razor sharp and the crescent moon inside that (protecting your hand) is also sharp. The opponent has a long weapon like a spear or sword and you just need to get one of your rings looped around the opponent's weapon and then charge forward, sliding that ring up to his arm, then try to get the other ring looped over the top of his head. Then start moving both rings like if they were a hula-hoop around his neck and arm.


.

[wiesiek]

thank you,
sounds like risky business,
but, battlefield isn`t safe place anyway.