Dantian Power

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Dantian Power

Postby D_Glenn on Sun Mar 15, 2015 9:18 am

In the first 7 minutes of the following clip CXW discusses 折叠 'Zhedie' (Rotating the Dantian on it's Horizontal Axis). Which is combined with 转换'Zhuanhuan' (turning/rotating the Dantian on it's Vertical Axis). As CXW shows they can be United/ Harmonized (合一 Heyi) or used separately.

Bob wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MitDyQU1rh0

Tai Chi (Chen Style) Part 01 陈氏太极拳-缠丝功【上】陈小旺



武禹襄 Wu Yuxiang or Wu Yu-hsiang (1812–1880) was a Chinese T'ai chi ch'uan (Taijiquan) teacher and government official active during the late Qing dynasty.[1] Wu was a scholar from a wealthy and influential family who became a senior student (along with his two older brothers Wu Chengqing 武澄清 and Wu Ruqing 武汝清) of 杨露禅 Yang Lu-Chan.[1] Wu also studied for a brief time with a teacher from the Chen family, Chen Qingping, to whom he was introduced by Yang.


[Discussing how to 'Fajin' (Issuing/ Emit/ Send power out from the Dantian)] by 武禹襄 Wu Yuxiang (Practitioner of Yang and Chen Family Taijiquan), (but credited or said to be the teachings of Wong Zong-Yue):

蓄劲如开弓,发劲如放箭。
Xu jin ru kai gong, Fajin ru fang jian.
Building up force (jin) as if pulling back the string of a bow/ Drawing Open (開 Kai) the Bow, Emitting the force (jin) as if releasing the arrow.

曲中求直,蓄而后发。
Qu zhong qiu zhi, xu erhou fa.
As the straight is bent, or curved, Gathering (force) then Emitting (fa).

力由脊发,步随身换。
Li you ji fa, bu sui shen huan.
Power comes from the spinal column emitting (force), the changes of the body go along with the stepping.

收即是放,连而不断。
Shou ji shi fang, Lian er bu duan.
[But, unlike the Bow and Arrow] Gathering quickly is releasing, they're linked together and can repeat unceasingly [Where the Arrow can only fire once].

往复须有折叠,进退须有转换。
Wangfu xu you Zhedie; Jintui xu you Zhuanhuan.
Going out and coming back must use 'Zhedie'. Entering and exiting must use 'Zhuanhuan'.

____

In 'Zhedie', the key is where the 'Horizontal Middle Axis/Axle' (横向中轴 Hengxiang Zhong Zhou) is going through your body. This should be about the same height as your navel, because if you follow a straight line from 'Qihai point' back to 'Mingmen point' it's at an angle so the center of this/ true Dantian, is where the Horizontal Axis crosses from side to side.
The other key is that it's the 'Tailbone Gate' (called 尾骨闾 Weigu Lu in CIMA vernacular) that moves the Dantian around it's Horizontal Axis.

When the tailbone tucks under, it's like a gear that turns the Chest (Upper torso) in the opposite direction. As seen in this animation:
Image

The Dantian is the 'Core' (核心 Hexin) of the movement. It moves, then every other part moves because of it's 'Influence'. (一动全动 Yi Dong Quan Dong "One part Moves, Every part Moves" aka 万法归 Wan Fa Gui Yi "The Ten Thousand Methods all come from One")

So it's the Zhuanhuan (turning of the Dantian on it's Vertical Axis) and the 'Zhedie' movement of the Dantian (Rotating it on it's horizontal axis), that then 'Influences' (影响 Yingxiang) the Shoulders, elbows, wrists, hands and also the Hips (kua), Knees, ankles, feet.

It is a difficult thing to distinguish the Hips (kua) from the 'Tailbone Gate' ( 尾骨闾 Weigu Lu), and it's just a matter of inches (Cun), but "Off by just an inch (cun) and later you'll be off by a mile (Li)." and on the other side of the coin the literally 1 Cun of movement that the 尾骨闾 Weigu Lu (Tailbone Gate) does, will translate to power that feels like miles. Like a Blackcat firecracker, a lot of power contained in a small movement. (Same thing with 'Zhuanhuan' - just 1 degree of rotation at the core (核心 Hexin) of the Dantian, becomes so much more when it's out at the hands.)

A lot of people in the IMA world have developed 'Zhuanhuan' but not too many people have figured out how to find their 'Zhedie' power.

Some people have learned how to use their 'Kua' (hips) to compensate for the lack of 'Zhedie', but it's not the same, it's self-limiting, as there is never the possibility for finding all the other more advanced Internal techniques that come from the 'Surging' (Bo) power of tucking and the 'Returning' (Fan) Power of untucking the 尾骨闾 Weigu Lu (Tailbone Gate).

Again:
往复须有折叠,进退须有转换。
Wangfu* xu you Zhedie; Jintui** xu you Zhuanhuan.
Going out and coming back must use 'Zhedie'. Entering and exiting must use 'Zhuanhuan'. ~ Written by Wu Yuxiang

*往复 Wangfu (to go and come back; to make a return trip / backwards and forwards (e.g. of piston or pump action) / to reciprocate (of machine part))

**进退 Jintui (to advance or retreat; knowing when to come and when to leave)

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Re: Dantian Power

Postby HunYuan on Sun Mar 15, 2015 6:21 pm

Another Great post D_Glenn and one of the reasons I still visit this forum...Thank you.
Could I ask you to elaborate a bit more about this please..
When the tailbone tucks under, it's like a gear that turns the Chest (Upper torso) in the opposite direction. As seen in this animation:

as I can understand/ feel the tailbone, but have just felt like inside the chest dropping down...and how would this action relate to the bolangjin and then the fanlanjin
would the same gear mechanism work in reverse from one to the other...how do you see the kua's fitting into this mechanism, or are they a separate mechanism?
Thank you you for any clarity you can give us...
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Re: Dantian Power

Postby D_Glenn on Sun Mar 15, 2015 7:32 pm

HunYuan wrote:Another Great post D_Glenn and one of the reasons I still visit this forum...Thank you.
Could I ask you to elaborate a bit more about this please..
When the tailbone tucks under, it's like a gear that turns the Chest (Upper torso) in the opposite direction. As seen in this animation:

as I can understand/ feel the tailbone, but have just felt like inside the chest dropping down...and how would this action relate to the bolangjin and then the fanlanjin
would the same gear mechanism work in reverse from one to the other?

Yep. But I can't stress enough how these movements also effect the Ren and Du Meridians and of course the Chong (Thrusting) meridian, and doing the Bolangjin movement really quick flows it in the Daoist manner; but Fanlangjin done fast, with force, momentarily flows the Du and Chong Meridian in reverse.

HunYuan wrote:how do you see the kua's fitting into this mechanism, or are they a separate mechanism?

It is a separate mechanism.

Circle Turning/ Walking is a really good way to realize and actualize that the tailbone gate and lumbar is a different mechanism then the kua/ Hips.

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Re: Dantian Power

Postby slowEdie on Mon Mar 16, 2015 12:22 pm

Yes,Thank you Devlin for these great posts and translations.
Your dedication and effort is much appreciated.

Wishing you Good Luck in all your endeavours!!
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Re: Dantian Power

Postby D_Glenn on Mon Mar 16, 2015 7:33 pm

Again, this quick, jolting movement of the tailbone is really small. The tip of the tailbone only moves about 1 Cun and the curve in the lumbar spine (yaobei) only moves about <1 Cun. Point being that it's difficult to see the movements of the tailbone, sometimes you can see the movement of the Lumbar spine, but what can be observed every time is the 'Crisp, Clear' (脆 Cui) transfer of the power up through the flesh of the torso, arms, and going down into the legs.

Here you can see it in ChenYu's solo 'Fa Li' (Issuing of power), and @ 00:57 you can really get a good glimpse of it-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGRXaYbUCs4


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Re: Dantian Power

Postby D_Glenn on Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:03 am

So what actually moves the Tailbone?
(Note--First of all- a portion of the deep pelvic muscles of the pelvic basin or pelvic dome should always be lifting up CV1 (Huiyin point) in the perineum);
So it's some more pelvic muscles, the groin muscles, the deep abdominal muscles, and then the deep back muscles that press out the lumbar and open Mingmen point. All the muscles and myofascial structures that comprise a well-structured Dantian.

So it's the muscles of the Dantian that quickly moves the Tailbone (root of the spine 'Gen Ji') and Lumbar 'Yaobei'; but it's this fast movement of the Spine (脊 Ji) that is 'Jolting' (震 Zhen) the Chong Meridian at the 尾骨闾 'Weigu Lu' (Tailbone Gate). So that's why it's written that 力由脊发 'Li you Ji fa (Power comes from the spinal column emitting/Issuing).

These core muscles of the lower abdomen are unique as far as skeletal muscle goes because they are like a fast-twitch (Type II) muscles, meaning capable of fast explosive bursts of power, but as they are invigorated with blood, they can also function and be developed by being under prolonged contraction or workload and are also like slow-twitch (Type I) muscles in this manner.

So we can train and develop this 'Zhedie' power of turning the Dantian by doing Standing postures while holding the tailbone tucked/ pulled under, lumbar pressed out, etc.; or, as we practice it in the style of Baguazhang that I study, is to spend roughly an hour a day doing non-stop Circle Walking while holding the tailbone tucked, etc.

Or in Taijiquan, one could do it like the old Chinese guys used to, and go through the whole form while trying to hold the tailbone tucked under, etc.; and then the second time you do the form you would slowly go through the motions of pulling/tucking under and untucking the tailbone in time with the movements of the form where the 'Fa' would be done, then the 3rd time through the whole form would do the 'Fa' at normal speed.

But the beginner should only really practice the form while holding the tucked position and strong Dantian, so that they first really and truly develop the strength of the Dantian. Even pausing at the end of movements which is a practice called 'Ding Shi' (Nailing the movement down and holding in place), as if your two feet were nailed/ staked to the ground. This should actually be done at the end of every movement (Shi) to make sure that your tailbone is still tucked under, your Dantian (pelvic, deep abdominal and back muscles) are being held solid, and qi is being sunk (Chen) to your Dantian (Meaning you are still calmly breathing deep and the blood is being stored in the Lower (Inferior) Vena Cava and not being forced up into your cardiopulmonary system, where your breathing becomes rapid and short).

Doing 'Ding Shi' where there's these short pauses is also crucial when learning to do Baguazhang's Circle Walking.

The importance of 'Sinking Qi to the Dantian' is because we need to keep the majority of our blood down in the Inferior Vena Cava and Abdominal Aorta (Inside the Dantian) in order to strengthen the Dantian as the muscles require the nutrients and energy found in the blood, in order to strengthen and then develop as a result of the practice.


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Re: Dantian Power

Postby D_Glenn on Fri Mar 20, 2015 9:15 pm

So in the Chinese Martial Arts where the idea of 'The Small (seemingly weak) defeats the Big and Strong, Use Soft to control the Hard' (以小胜大,以柔制刚 Yi Xiao Sheng Da, Yi Rou Zhi Gang), etc. is because of the skill of being able to Issue (Fa) a 振動力 - Zhen Dongli (Shocking Power) when they're striking or counter-attacking.

There are some Basic ways of differentiating Forces or Powers in the Chinese Martial Systems:

1st) Is called 衝擊力 Chōng​jī​ Lì (Impact or Thrusting Power) a.k.a. 撞擊力 Zhuàng​jī Li (Hitting; Colliding Power) is the standard way that all the worlds martial artists punch and strike. It's like hitting a nail with a hammer.

In the Internal Martial Arts we use Standing and Slow-Movement practices (抽絲 Chou Si / Pulling Silk) to develop what's called a 'Peng' quality of the whole body, that then changes/ transforms, (kind of like how a caterpillar undergoes metamorphosis and changes/transforms (hua) into a butterfly) how their 衝擊力 Chōng​jī​ Lì (Impact Power) affects an opponent.

2nd) Is called 螺旋力 Luoxuan Li (Spiraling; Drilling Power) or 自轉力 Zì​zhuàn Li (Self-Rotating Power) is the spiraling rotational power or ability of using this force to Change (Bian) the 衝擊力 Chōng​jī​ Lì (Impact Power). This is also called 纏絲勁 'Chan Si Jin' (Silk Reeling Quality/ Skill), and if this is like manipulating the strands of silk, then the Peng Jin is kind of like the cocoon that's made of this proverbial silk thread. This is the Spiraling power of the four limbs (起钻落翻 Qi Zuan Luo Fan (Rising, Drilling, Lowering, Overturning)) and the 自轉力 Zì​zhuàn Li (Self-Rotating Power) of the Waist/Dantian and torso on it's vertical axle.

3rd) Is an additional movement of the spinal column and Dantian (that I've been describing in this thread), but it requires the 1st and 2nd skills of 'Peng Jin' and 'Chan Si Jin' but now one Issues Power (發力 Fa Li/ 發勁 Fa Jin), and it's an additional wave of power that can be added to the 衝擊力 Chōng​jī​ Lì Power or 螺旋力 Luoxuan Li (Spiraling Power). This is the 自轉力 Zì​zhuàn Li (Self-Rotating Power) of the Waist/Dantian on it's horizontal axle.


4th) Is called 爆破力 Baopo Li (Exploding Power) a.k.a. 寸力 Cùn Li​ (Inch Power) is the ability to generate force in a very short space. After one first learns to 'Fa Li' with the spine then they can begin to learn this force where you need to store up (蓄 xù) very quickly and efficiently, or rather the storing up part needs to also be done within a short or confined space and then release the force (發 fa) in an equally as quick manner, like a quick pulse rather than a wave, and this could be a short movement or long movement of the arm with the quick pulse at the end.

Where finally -

5th) 振動力 - Zhen Dongli (Shocking Power) a.k.a. 抖勁 Dǒujìn​ (trembling; shaking energy). This is done by manipulating the 發 Fa with quick and sudden variations in the 肌肉 jī​ròu (muscles and flesh) of the body. The goal of this force is that it 透勁 tòujìn​ (penetrates; passes through) and into the internal organs of the opponent or into the bones, damaging them.

The Power that comes from the 發力 'Fa Li' movement of the Tailbone and the Jolt (震 Zhen) of the Dantian's power comes out 'Omnidirectional', or expanding outward in all directions, so a good portion of the power is also going down to the foot and this is the reason for the rule of "The hand and foot arriving at the same time." or timing the landing of the foot with the hand/ arm hitting the opponent so that most of the Power goes into the opponent. If the foot lands before the hand then most of the force is dissipated into the ground. We intentionally take advantage of this force traveling to the leg and it's how the 振動力 - Zhen Dongli (Shocking Power) becomes a 3rd outgoing power, arriving just after the 1st (衝擊力 Chōng​jī​ Lì) and the 2nd (發力 'Fa Li' ).

So in the video of Chenyu you can see that he's demonstrating a 振動力 - Zhen Dongli (Shocking Power) and it's kind of a demonstration of all 5 types of Power as it requires the skills and methods from all 5. The difference between the different movements is that some will be using more Peng Jin, while other movements will be more 'Chan Si Jin' or more spiraling.

Big, Large people (Like the genetic Jurchen Tribe people (Manchurians) or people of European descent) can learn just the first 2 methods of generating Internal Power and be essentially undefeated. But as the Internal Martial Arts are really about A Small person being capable of defeating the Big, Large person (以小胜大 Yi Xiao Sheng Da). Which require the skills of the 3rd, 4th, and especially the 5th method (Shocking Power), And it's these skill that are being lost and might be non-existent in future generations of IMA.


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Re: Dantian Power

Postby D_Glenn on Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:08 am

Bao wrote:
D_Glenn wrote:I've been arguing with Bao about this since around 2005. That's why he thinks we practice a "Hard External" style. :D

That's a lie. I have never said that Yin bagua is external or even that your lineage is external. What I have said is that the Lion method is the most external of the eight sub systems in your lineage. Somewhat it resembles Mingjin, or evident force in orthodox XY. The Lion is all solid and relies on structure. The applications relies on breaking through the opponents structure using structure. You have never opposed or argumented against these statements about the Lion methods, that it relies on external, solid structure.

Clearly then you've only seen (trained?) a small fraction of the Lion system. The first 4 attacking methods (Neng) of the Lion are, at first, done in a rather large, obvious movements, as you mentioned, but this Large Frame (Da Jia) is done in order to learn and develop the first 4 ways of Power I described in the post above - Develop Peng Jin, Chan Si Jin, and learn the biomechanics to Fa Li called Fa Jin, (especially crucial to do 'Large Frame' in order to 'Pull Silk'), then learn to make the movements smaller and more efficient by doing it in 'Medium and Small Frame'.

But in the 5th attacking method of the Lion it's more an energetic or conceptual method as it is learning to add-in the 振動力 - Zhen Dongli (Shocking Power) a.k.a. 抖勁 Dǒujìn​ (trembling; shaking energy) into the previous attacking methods. And it's this Shocking Power that is the pinnacle of the Lion and is how the whole of the Lion is really used; as it's a Shocking Power Strike that is the Lion's Single Palm Change which is also the application for the 'Lion Opens It's Mouth' Representative posture.

The Large Frame movements are for learning and developing body qualities. But in an actual fight it's the 'Shocking Power' (振 Zhen), which is Rou (soft), but in order to not be one-sided there's the other Energy/ Concept, the 6th attacking method of the Lion called 擋 Dang (To protect; Cover or Keep off); So this is Yin and Yang within an assault, a simple example of Yang-Yin-Yang: first you protect yourself/ Dang; then counter with a shock strike/ Zhen (which is to 透勁 tòujìn​ (Penetrate to the insides of the opponent, while their exterior doesn't move); then get away from the opponent or keep the opponent away with another Dang.


Bao wrote:First, I have never seen any of your classmates or any student to your teacher who shows any kind of "elasticity" in what they do. This is merely a fact, but of course according to my own experience, both what I have been shown first hand and what I have seen on the net.

I don't really know of or can speak about what other students are doing. And I don't even know any of the Swedish guys.

I only know, and can speak about what I learned from Dr. Xie and He Jinbao, and my own body that I've developed per their instructions and it, like theirs, is quite 'Songjindai'/ Elastic.


Bao wrote: Second, there is nothing I have "heard of" or that I believe in because I have read something or someone has told me so. I have always stated that everything I write about is solely based upon my own experiences and my own practice. This is unlike others here who usually just repeat or translate what others have said. Everything that I believe in are things that I understand through experience. And everything is about what I have used "for real", i.e. in practice, sparring against people from other styles and in real fights. There is no theory, about what I write about, no wishful thinking, and nothing else than my own first hand practical experience.

I do the same. I don't write about theories. I only write about my own experiences. I'm usually getting up and doing the things I write about, while I'm writing, in order to feel something and try to put it into words better.

Some people are clearly writing stuff from books they read, but they're just trolls and are easily called out when they can't elaborate.


Bao wrote:I understand that you and many others here can not appreciate the level of softness that some very famous and well respected teachers teach. This is something you can only understand through practice and through own experience. It took me about twenty years to develop the same level of relaxation, softness and sensitivity as my teacher. After twenty years of feeling like I was "waving hands in clouds" against my teacher and handled like a leaf in a storm, I could follow and understand his force and listen to it, but only when I was soft enough.

20 years is 18 years too long in my experience. But YMMV :D

But I do understand and I have tremendous respect for the Rou (soft 以柔制刚 Yi Rou Zhi Gang), but the greater the contrast between one's Soft and Hard (Rou and Gang), the more powerful their Soft attacks are. That's a fact.


Bao wrote:We all have different experience and we focus on different things. If you build one sort of shenfa, it is hard to appreciate a different sort of shenfa. But like some people here, dismissing what you haven't tried first hand, studied and really tried to develop is just ridiculous and dishonest.

In our Yin Style of Baguazhang we have 8 different Shenfa's. So I do also have tremendous respect and understanding of the differences between them and it can take months and months of daily training to learn a new one and change your body from one to the other via Standing and Turning practices.

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Re: Dantian Power

Postby D_Glenn on Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:19 am

slowEdie wrote:Yes,Thank you Devlin for these great posts and translations.
Your dedication and effort is much appreciated.

Wishing you Good Luck in all your endeavours!!

Sorry for the late reply. Thanks though. I really appreciate the feedback.


I'm just trying to share more information about the IMA skills that are a lot more difficult to learn and use. The very nature of them, in every aspect of training and usage, is what leads to their demise in the lineages. There's only a handful of Chinese who are openly teaching these things. And there is more Chinese people who are only teaching it to Inner Door Native Chinese Disciples. But that's no guarantee that the skills will survive into the future. My Baguazhang style is only being taught openly because two of the top Chinese disciples died in auto accidents.

***
Some more about 以小胜大'Yi Xiao Sheng Da' (Use Small [to] Defeat Big).

This is about how a Small person can defeat a Large person, but it's also about how a Small Movement (of the Tailbone) can be better than; surpass; superior to (胜 Sheng) using a Large, big movement.

A Small movement of the tailbone Jolts (震 Zhen) the Energy of the Dantian and via our MInd/Intent (意 Yi) to Form/ Shape it into a strike that has 振動力 Zhen Dongli (Shocking Power). The movement of the tailbone is very small, minute, the minute wave up the spine, and the movement of the attacking arm is small. But this can break a person's arm or damage internal organs.

Normally in martial arts we are constrained to using a large, big, long movement of the arm that accrues speed and momentum over the length of the movement, and then has knockout power at the end of the strike. Or Long pushing off the back leg to 'Shove or Push/ Jab the arm forward for knockout power. Unfortunately this is what you see thousands of people who think they are doing Taijiquan using this "Power Coming from the Ground".

Not that it's a bad thing, it's how people naturally move and fight. But it is limited by weight or mass. That's why they have different weight classes.

Learning to develop and then use a 振動力 Zhen Dongli (Shocking Power) is completely unnatural. And as in Daoist Cultivation we have to first Go Against (Ni) our Natural tendencies (天然 Tianran - Born-With), where in the case of fighting it's to use the ground, or to use momentum and large movements to generate power. And later these new, formerly unnatural movements will be natural again, but it's now your new-nature (自然 Ziran).


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Re: Dantian Power

Postby Bao on Sat Mar 21, 2015 11:12 am

D_Glenn wrote:Clearly then you've only seen (trained?) a small fraction of the Lion system.


That's true. I've heard a lot of things, theory, history and read a lot. A fascinating and complex art. I have practiced together with a few practitioners, quite a lot with a couple of them, but that was ages ago. But for practicing yin bagua, merely a few sessions, the very beginning only. I felt immediately that this was not for me. The body method is just too different.it interfered too much with my tai chi and after practicing bagua, my tai chi became rather stiff. Sun and Zheng bagua was no trouble, but I threw all of that away as well. I don't think that the Yin method is worse or something, just different. And I have seen people who really made their Lion shenfa work. Very impressing, very powerful. Even stronger than any Hung gar I have met (and I have met and practiced with quite a few Hunggar stylists). But I don't think I could ever bring Yin Lion method to that level, I don't think I have the right body type for that.

The first attacking 4 methods (Neng) are rather large, obvious movements, as you mentioned, but this is done to learn and develop the first 4 ways of Power I described in the post above - Develop Peng Jin, Chan Si Jin, and learn the biomechanics to Fa Li called Fa Jin, then learn to make the movements smaller and more efficient. But in the 5th attacking method of the Lion is more an energetic or conceptual one as it is learning to add the 振動力 - Zhen Dongli (Shocking Power) a.k.a. 抖勁 Dǒujìn​ (trembling; shaking energy) into the previous attacking methods. And it's this Shocking Power that is the pinnacle of the Lion and is how the whole of the Lion is really used; as it's a Shocking Power Strike that is the Lion's Single Palm Change which is also the application for the 'Lion Opens It's Mouth' Representative posture.

The Large movements are for learning and developing body qualities. But in an actual fight it's the 'Shocking Power' (振 Zhen), which is Rou (soft), but in order to not be one-sided there's the other Energy/ Concept, the 6th attacking method of the Lion called 擋 Dang (To protect; Cover or Keep off); So this in Yin and Yang within the assault, a simple example of Yang-Yin-Yang: first you protect yourself/ Dang; then counter with a shock strike/ Zhen (which is to 透勁 tòujìn​ (Penetrate to the insides of the opponent, while their exterior doesn't move); then get away from the opponent or keep the opponent away with another Dang.


Thank you for explaining the complexity better. You explain well.

20 years is 18 years too long in my experience. But YMMV :D


I tend to agree. Not that it would only take two years, but it's too long. In tai chi, it takes two to five years to develop strong roots, only after that you can start taking song to another level. When I was a kid I was very stiff, to strong passive muscle tone I guess. My tai chi helped me tremendously with about everything I did in and after school, and that's why I continued to practice.

But I do understand and I have tremendous respect for the Rou (soft 以柔制刚 Yi Rou Zhi Gang), but they greater the contrast between one's Soft and Hard (Rou and Gang) the more powerful their Soft attacks are. That's a fact.


The contrasts will be greater, that's for sure. From completely empty to "something". I dare to say "full" because that could be easily misunderstood. But acceleration is needed, from zero to everything in an instant. This powerful, instantaneus outburt of power is very hard to achieve if you don't understand to be completely empty. "Drawing the bow", this could need some "elastic" tension. But to release, we use emptiness.

Very few take the leap of faith and develop song to the same degree of my teacher. If you watched his form and saw his movements, you would think that he was too limp. But he strikes like a horse kicks and his timing and sensativity is exceptional. He has mistakes and things he need to develop, still, I know that he takes care of most if the people who relies on structure and also wrestlers, judokas etc. He went to Chen schools and has met people practicing PTTC, even those who compete and have won medals. No one of these was even close to a match for him. Yet, when he has visited them and begin their classes, it always start with them telling him that he is too limp, that he should do longer movements, take a better posture etc. Lol. In tai chi some teachers say that's important to "hide" your shenfa, not let skill be visible or visually measured. But I don't think my teacher ever heard someone express it like this...

In our Yin Style of Baguazhang we have 8 different Shenfa's. So I do also have tremendous respect and understanding of the differences between them and it can take months and months of daily training to learn a new one and change your body from one to the other via Standing and Turning practices.


I don't understand how you do it. It seems almost impossible as it seems like you would need two or more bodies at the same time. Yet, I have seen people make it work. I don't think I ever could....

Thank you for replying, explaining and discussing. Very much appreciated. 8-)
Last edited by Bao on Sat Mar 21, 2015 11:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dantian Power

Postby D_Glenn on Sat Mar 21, 2015 11:38 am

Bao, I gotta run, but just wanted to point out that I had made a bunch of edits to my post, and you quoted the first draft.

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Re: Dantian Power

Postby D_Glenn on Sun Mar 22, 2015 11:41 am

Here's an old thread with some video clips of Yang style Taijiquan showing a 振動力 - Zhen Dongli (Shocking Power) a.k.a. 抖勁 Dǒujìn​ (trembling; shaking energy)--

http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8926

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Re: Dantian Power

Postby D_Glenn on Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:11 am

So the 1st important skill or body capability to have and impart is Peng. Peng is a made-up word/ character to show/ signify a Martial/ Fighting usage.

The character 棚 Peng is made up of 木 Mu (tree; wood) which is bundled, bound (绷带 Bengdai) and Gathered Together (朋 Peng).

Take a bunch of Bamboo poles, by themselves, they're not very strong but when a bunch of them are Bound together they are strong, yet flexible, and inherent quality of the healthy wood that they're made of. This the 棚架 Pengjia (Bamboo Scaffolding/ Planks) that you want your body to be like. And since it's a Martial quality it's written as 掤 (Peng with the hand radical).

In Wuji stance (Preparatory Stance), and most Qigong practices, one should have their whole body be 放松 Fangsong (Relaxed), as it aids in the calm flow of Qi and Shen.

But in the Martial Standing practices (Zhan Zhuang and Ding Shi) where we are specifically working to develop 掤 'Peng' then one uses a 紧 Jǐn or 紧绷 Jinbeng (Tautness/ Tonus) when doing the actual Zhan Zhuang. As we strive to have a 松紧带 Sōng​jǐn​dài (Elastic) quality throughout the body and limbs.

It's this Elastic (松紧带 Sōng​jǐn​dài) and Many Parts Bound Together ((绷带 Bengdai) and Functioning as One (棚架 Pengjia) that will, in time develop the Body Attacking Method of 掤 'Peng'.

In a fight you want to be 轻松 Qingsong (effortless / uncomplicated) but this can only really be there if you've used 紧 Jǐn (Tautness) in your training and developed the 松紧带 Sōng​jǐn​dài (Elastic) quality of your body, or another way to say it- In order to be Effortless (轻松 Qingsong) in a fight, you have to put out a lot of effort (紧 Jǐn) in your training practice. This is especially important in the Zhan Zhuang (Standing) of your training practices as they're like the Yang side of it. At the Extreme of Yang is Yin, and when you get to the Sparring part of your practice (San Shou) and application work, where we want to be Yin, your body will naturally be 轻松 Qingsong.

轻松 Qingsong is a mental and physical thing. So our whole body and limbs are 紧抱 jǐn​bào (tight embrace), like holding the movement back, then when you actually move it will already be 集拢 Jí​lǒng​ (gathered/ assembled) like an army ready to charge forward.

As it becomes a habit, it begins to create a change in one's 精神状态 jīng​shén​zhuàng​tài (mental state) and their 生理状态 shēng​lǐ zhuàng​tài (physical state) and then allows them to, very quickly, 集拢 Jí​lǒng​ (gather) up their defenses for a fight or defending against an assailant.

集攏 [集拢] Jilong (Gathered together; Assembled) is another way to describe 掤 'Peng'.
As 集 Ji is Birds (隹 Zhui) perched in a tree (木 Mu).

and 攏 Long (is Gathering sticks of wood in your arm). The wood not yet being bundled together; and the small birds assembled in a tree, both are easily disassembled, released, the sticks are dropped on the ground, the birds easily startle and take flight; and this is how 掤 'Peng' is. You do the conscious work to develop 掤 'Peng' while in Standing practice. But in an actual fight it's just there. It's not really a conscious thing, it's now an inherent quality of your body.

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Re: Dantian Power

Postby D_Glenn on Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:00 pm

So the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd powers:

1st)Internal 衝擊力 Chōng​jī​ Lì (Impact Power) aka 掤 'Peng'

2nd) 螺旋力 Luoxuan Li (Spiraling; Drilling Power) or 纏絲勁 'Chan Si Jin' (Silk Reeling Quality/ Skill) aka 转换 'Zhuanhuan'

3rd) 發力 Fa Li/ 發勁 Fa Jin - (Releasing/ Issuing power via spine and Dantian movement) aka 折叠 'Zhedie'

Need to be learned at the same time / practiced concurrently.

(The 4th and 5th powers are built on top of the foundation of these first three.)

The key is balancing Movement (動 Dòng) and Stillness (靜 Jìng).

Movement (動 Dòng) is represented by the 震卦 Zhèn Guà ☳ which is associated with thunder and lightning, where the quick flash of lightning and loud crack of thunder shocks and startles one to move. This is the 發力 Fa Li. But in the beginning there is no connections, so you can move quickly but it's disconnected movement.

Stillness (靜 Jìng) is represented by the 艮卦 Gèn Guà ☶ because it is associated with the tall mountains where nothing grows except for Pine Trees (松 Song).

So we need to stand still like a Mountain. Like a Silkworm attaches itself to a fixed place and starts constructing it's cocoon. Our body needs to be connected like the web-like strands of a cocoon. Our Dantian is it's own cocoon, and our body encapsulates it and our whole body is like this Gauze-Like Net (羅 Luo). Where if one part moves then all parts move.

羅 Luo (Net) gives us words like 纙 Luo (Silk string on which coins are threaded), which is worn around the belt, or was tied around the shoulder and the strings and coins were hidden in the sleeve of the arm and could be thrown out of the sleeve and used as a weapon where all the coins are flying but the combined power when all the coins come together and hit an attacker is where the Secondary Wave of power hits. Just like how 'Fa Li' works.

This also gives us 籮筐 Luokuang (Wicker, Woven Basket), another name for an Exterior Dantian. It's in the Standing practices that the External Dantian (Waidan) is developed. This takes work and effort. Many countless people have attempted to skip the building of their Waidan and only seek to fill-up their Internal Dantian (Neidan). But this is a fruitless endeavor because, like a poorly constructed wicker basket, the Dantian just leaks, spilling out and Dispersing everything they're attempting to build up.

Another word that comes from 'Net' is 邏 Luo (Patrol) like a cop or security guard goes around and makes his rounds checking everything is secure. This is also how, when Standing Still in Zhan Zhuang, we use our 意 'Yi' to mentally move around our body, checking all the physical requirements, making sure everything is still locked down, being held taut. Yi leads Qi (energy) to the muscles, providing Strength (Li). At first you can only keep your Qi in one section of a limb, and as soon as you take your mind (Yi) away from that section it becomes relaxed. But through diligent practice (Patrolling your body like a cop; Pulling Silk/ Painstakingly investigate (抽絲剝繭 Chousibaojian)), eventually but gradually you will be able to leave Qi in more and more body parts until eventually all the appropriate and required muscles (for the particular Zhan Zhuang) throughout the whole body are being held taut, (and your Yi/Mind can be free to work on other things).

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Last edited by D_Glenn on Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dantian Power

Postby D_Glenn on Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:08 pm

Finally, after thousands of pointless things on the Facebook groups, something that's actual useful pops up.
Here's an interview with CXW where he talks about Zhuanhuan, Zhedie, and 掤 'Peng', which is like a Shield (盾 Dun), or like a policeman's Riot Shield (防暴盾 Fanbaodun) being that it's clear plastic and one can see-through it.
Fali/ Fajin is like the Spear (槍 Qiang/ 矛 Mao, the classic Spear 矛 vs. 盾 Shield -- 矛盾 Maodun (a contradiction)), it's how the CIMAs attack. The Shield can also be used to attack, and a Spear can intercept, but why not just have both a Shield and a Spear and avoid having to be on one side or the other, instead be well-rounded/ fully developed (成體 Chengti).

Some people in the martial world are making really big waves, but they're only using their Shield (掤 Peng, translated as "Energy Shield" below) to strike, throw, wrestle/ grapple. Which does shows the power or potential of 掤 Peng in the human body. But it's only roughly half (夾生 Jiasheng) of the Chinese IMA puzzle.

DISCUSSIONS WITH CHEN XIAOWANG
Q: How do you use the dantian in applying force?
CXW: The dantian is the energy center of the body and requires coordination of the entire body. The force generated originates from the dantian and coordinates with the rest of the body, gaining force.

Q: What are the mechanics of applying dantian force?
CXW: Spiral force coordinated through the movement of the body. When the dantian turns, the body turns and pushes the hands. The dantian area is like the center of a circle.

Q: How are the back and legs coordinated with the dantian?
CXW: When the dantian begins moving, you connect the muscles of the legs and back to follow the dantian. Every part moves together, all connected. The hand does not move by itself, the dantian pushes the hand. It's a three dimensional movement, using the whole body. The dantian, hip, knee, leg all coordinate, initiating in the spiraling through the body.

Q: Does the dantian have force?
CXW: A small amount. The small force pushes the rest of the body (muscle and bone).

Q: What is the connection between qi and the dantian?
CXW: Qi by itself is weak, soft. The dantian "communicates" to the
muscle and bone. The dantian is the storage of all the qi. The jingluo directs the qi through the body. When qi is generated, it is communicated (wired like a bomb) through the body. It is very important to understand the relationship of dantian to qi, qi and muscle, and muscle and bone. The main communication is between the dantian and muscle -- this is the essence of Chen Taijiquan.

Q: There is a lot of emphasis on the dantian rotation in the Chen Style, correct?
CXW: Yes, in terms of connection to the whole body and the dantian leading the movement. Also, when empty, the qi goes from the dantian out to the hand it is yang. When it returns to the dantian, it is yin.

Q: What is the importance of yi?
CXW: The application of yi to the movement is important. There are three stages: early, middle, and advanced. Half the mind concentrates on the movement itself, the other half of the mind is empty or open. In the early stage you pay attention to the movement or the qi itself. At the advanced stage you don't have to pay attention to it, all the channels are open and the qi is flowing naturally with concentrating on it. This is because the energy moves easily through the body. No matter what stage, it is important to keep one half of the concentration on the body's movement and one half of the mind open.

Q: Are there acupuncture points stimulated by movements in Taiji?
CXW: Different postures require different coordination of the muscles, resulting in different emphasis. Qi is communicated through the channels, so there are different results with different movements.

Q: Are there any differences in breathing patterns between the Laojia Yi lu and Er lu forms?
CXW: Many people ask this. There are same and different principles associated with each form, but one should not try to control the breathing. Keep it natural. When doing fajin, it is natural to exhale. In the beginning you need to focus on correcting the movements, don't try to force the breathing. As skill increases the body's requirements for oxygen will adjust naturally. Be honest with the needs of your body. If you run or jump, the body will respond by adjusting your breathing naturally. You don't need to think about it. Taiji is the same.

Q: Would you discuss qi?
CXW: Some things can only be felt and cannot be described. You should be feeling "hot water", pouring through your arm and to your hand. Even at low levels, people can feel this. When the arm is circling the little finger moves, energy goes to the dantian. When the thumb moves, the qi goes from the dantian out to the hand.

Q: What is the difference between qi and jing?
CXW: The qi communicates, by itself is different. When communicated to the muscles, the qi becomes jing. Jing is the expression of qi,as it becomes explosive force. Whenever qi communicates explosive force to the muscles, it becomes jing.

Q: What is the difference between jing and shen?
CXW: Jing and shen are nearly the same. Shen is a higher level, jing is the first level of shen. Jing is the foundation of the building, shen is the top of the building. The relationship between yi and qi is the king, the qi is the army (bones and muscle). The yi is the king, muscle and bone the general. Yi effects qi.

Q: What are the most important principles in Chen Style Taijiquan?
CXW: Posture, position -- standing post exercise is the first form. This gets the body ready for Taijiquan practice. Before you can drive a car, you have to adjust the mirrors, seats, buckle in, etc. This is similar. Think of the dantian as the center. The body must be in balance, the mind quiet and peaceful, energy flowing everywhere through the body. The key point is that the body is connected, qi is flowing and communicating with the rest of the body.

You have the one posture, two movement principle:The first principle the dantian moves side to side, turning, spiraling,and changing. Connection as above (standing post), maintained in moving, dantian moves the body responds. The second principle the dantian moves forward and backward. The movement corresponds to the dantian movement to another -- transition from one movement to another -- fundamental. Not spiraling. Once you understand the posture and the movement principles you understand all forms, applications, or any weapon. If you don't understand these principles, you are like a tree without roots and you can't grow.The two movement principles can combine into one because of the similarity.The chest/waist change the move, opening and closing.

Q: What are common mistakes people make learning Taijiquan?
CXW: One of the most common mistakes is that they don't understand the two movement principles. They try to just copy their teacher's movements, without understanding. The student must know what to do and what not to do, not just follow their teacher blindly. Each movement has a standard, and principles to be followed, so the teacher must understand this in order to teach the student, and the student must look for this and will/should be able to adjust other students and themselves. I want to see both the teacher and the student move forward together, toward the same goal of higher standard in Taijiquan.

Q: What is the importance of standing post?
CXW: It is the posture which increases the communication between the dantian and the rest of the body. One posture two movement principle. Standing post is the way to practice one posture.

Q: When should a student begin push hands?
CXW: Before push hands, you must understand the movement principles, coordination of the entire body. If you don't, you end up with too much arm movement.

Q: Is central equilibrium developed through push hands?
CXW: This is done through the movement principles and the standing posture. Many times people fail in push hands because they lose the balance of the dantian. Maintain the beginning posture then when you move, maintain the two movement principles.

Q: How can people improve their push hands?
CXW: People should practice the entire Laojia Yi lu form. Practice all the postures and the form more often, think about application of each movement. You must practice often, keep the principles in mind during practice, until they become part of yourself.

Q: Is there a need to distinguish between yin and yang?
CXW: I use solid and empty, not yin and yang. It is difficult to explain, use double weighted, which means both sides have the same weight. In Taijiquan, you need to make one side lighter than the other, but that is too easy. If it were that easy, everyone would be a Taiji master. The real meaning is in the static posture. When the body isn't moving, the energy can't move, stagnation.

Q: What is the value of Qigong for Taiji practice?
CXW: Qigong principles are similar to Taiji. Same channels, dantian, body, etc. Taijiquan is a complete set of Qigong, you really need no other. Taijiquan is more systematic and sequential. I teach Qigong to those that desire to learn Qigong.

Q: What is the value of the Healing Sounds Qigong?
CXW: It is simple. There are sounds associated with movements of the body.
Just like a musical scale they all come from the mouth, but have different reactions on the body. Depending on your particular ailment or problem you create a specific sound.

Q: The push hands tournament tape from the Chen village looks pretty physical.
CXW: Some enter the tournament without proper practice. There are two aspects to push hands: 1. actively attack, 2. passively protect yourself. If you are being pushed you must protect yourself. You should learn and understand both aspects of the competition. The problem with the tournament is that many try to be number one (win), so both partners are actively attacking each other at the same time. This is the problem. Sometimes the competitors are not well matched either.

Q: How do you use peng energy in fajin?
CXW: The basic idea behind peng jing is energy flow, no stagnation. If energy is broken there is no peng jing. If there's too much energy, also no peng jing. This is a big problem here in the US. Many people have the wrong idea about peng jing. The mind must be clear and peaceful. Peng jing cannot be forced. Allow energy to flow naturally is the only way.

Q: Is it necessary to have ground path in order to have peng jing?
CXW: No. It is like a car on a lift. The car's engine can still run and the wheels will turn. Once you place the car on the ground the car will move. Peng jing is similar.

Q: How can neutralization skills be developed?
CXW: The posture must be relaxed, the mind relaxed, then minimal amount of movement is required to neutralize. This is peng jing. If the dantian is in communication with the body, it creates an "energy shield" around the body. If you lose communication with part of the body you lose peng jing. If doing properly, the arm will communicate how the rest of the body needs to respond. The soldier send signals to the general and the body responds as needed.

Q: How does open and close work when attacking?
CXW: When you are going to attack, the body collapses (closes) then opens, when attacking it opens in front and closes in back. Another way to say it is outside open and inside closed. When gathering the outside is closed and the inside is open.

Q: You created a 19 movement form?
CXW: The 19 form is from the request of many students from around the world. There are four sections in the form. It goes from right to left four times. The principles are based on the Chen Style Laojia (Old Frame), Xinjia (New Frame), and Xiaojia (Small Frame). The principles must be clear and then applied to all the 19 form postures. It is easy for beginners to learn. It was designed for the modern human, who has little time to practice a longer form.


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Last edited by D_Glenn on Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
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