Dantian Power

[edededed]

In terms of moving neigong, I don't think that there is anything wrong with shoulder-width legs (for example, yiquan mocabu and taijiquan practice generally has the legs apart in such a fashion). Bagua circle walking has additional requirements, however, because it is training additional aspects.

[Fa Xing]

The Root of the spine is the Tailbone, which in turn moves the upper part of the spine (it's Tip) which moves the Root of the Arm- the shoulder and then finally the Tips of the arm (the hands) are moved.

That's so biomechanically incorrect! Your tailbone (coccyx) doesn't actually move, in fact your whole sacrum and coccyx begin fusing around 16-18 years old, and finish typically by the time you're 25 years old. I would bet the majority of us are over 25 years old. That being said, biomechanically, you're lumbosacral region is generally meant for stabilization while exerting force, which means it moves very little. The facet joints are positioned in the lumber spine specifically for flexion and extension, rotation while flexing and/or extending tends to put one at risk for injury (i.e. disc protrusion, facet arthropathy).

Your thoracic spine is meant to have the most freedom of movement in the torso, which allows you to transfer force from ground and legs, to the stabilized core (aka dantian) through the movement of the T-spine and out the arms.

The upper part of the spine, btw, is the atlanto-occipital joint, which is well above the shoulders.

[D_Glenn]

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[daniel pfister]

That's so biomechanically incorrect!

But somebody wrote it in CHINESE man! It's gotta be true! It's just gotta...

[D_Glenn]

Yes it's the sacrum and lumbar that move. Welcome to Empty Flower circa 2004.

It's the internal feeling of movement around the tip of the tailbone, which is around the base of the Zhong and Chong meridian, which is where the intent is.

How the muscles move anatomically is outside the knowledge of any layperson. It's the general locations and the Chinese use the word Weigu but more important is the feeling around the area of tip of the tailbone called the 'Tailbone Gate' ( 尾骨闾 Weigu Lu in CIMA vernacular), so it's not really about the tailbone as everyone in the world knows that it's connected to the Sacrum and can't be moved independently.

Tucking the tailbone under is actually called 'Rolling the buttocks under or the Sit Bones under', and the first 'sit bone' that you can feel and is prone to break when falling on your ass is the tailbone.

I've already covered this in the first post of this thread. This is becoming a nuisance.

Edit -- the Tailbone area is also called 尾閶 Wei Chang and Tucking the Tailbone is 抄尾閶 Chao Wei Chang.

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[D_Glenn]

It's a bow, as in bow and arrow, when you release the string both ends of the bow move but the ends of the bow aren't moving by their own power, it's from the combined power of the whole.

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[littlepanda]

A six month old baby, lying on the floor, can lift its legs without tensing the abdomen. Does it have anything to do with dantian power? i hope somebody can explain the mechanics behind it.

ady

[Fa Xing]

I understand what you are trying to say D_Glenn, but what the martial artists of old wrote down based on the oral tradition of illiterate martial artists before them were trying to explain things in the best way they can with the knowledge that they had. Even in the West 100 years ago, human biomechanics was just not as well understood.

Someone can experience a myriad of feelings occurring during whatever they are doing, that doesn't mean that is what is happening. I love reading CMA classics, and I wish I could read them in Chinese, but the fact is that I read them with a grain of salt and try to read between the lines. They are attempting to best describe what they are experiencing, and from my little understanding and grasp of the Chinese language, many times things are described far more poetically than they ever would be in English especially if they were meant for oral transmission by way of rote memory, much in the same way as Buddhist text often engaged in massive amounts of repetition in order to remember them for chanting, meditation, and oral transmission up until 500 years after the death of Guatama.

I have been doing martial arts for almost 21 years now, which is probably not a long time, but the experienced I get the less I want to read about martial arts and more that I just want to practice, practice, and practice.

[Fa Xing]

A six month old baby, lying on the floor, can lift its legs without tensing the abdomen. Does it have anything to do with dantian power? i hope somebody can explain the mechanics behind it.

ady

That's probably because most of the bones in an infant have not ossified fully and thus they have lighter legs than most children at least 12-18 months old. Plus the neurology of an infant is different. The pathological (meaning shouldn't be there) reflexes that would be abnormally found in an adult are normally present in a child under one year. This is probably a protective mechanism in order for them to be super-reflexive.

PM me in a year when my baby will be 6 months and I'll test it for you.

[Bhassler]

A six month old baby, lying on the floor, can lift its legs without tensing the abdomen. Does it have anything to do with dantian power? i hope somebody can explain the mechanics behind it.

A baby uses the mass of it's body to counter-balance around a fulcrum that happens with the interplay between the hip joints and where the sacrum touches the floor. As the legs lift, the spine arches, and then as the legs get higher and the leverage shortens the spine sinks back down towards the ground. As movement quality and as an example of a type of body mechanic it has a lot of relation to IMA, but not necessarily as something we would literally imitate. The way the abdomen moves in relation to the spine has relevance to the dantian specifically, but again the goals, circumstance, and anthropometry are different, so it may be best not to get too carried away with the whole "babies don't have any muscles and look at all the stuff they do" motif.

[D_Glenn]

I understand what you are trying to say D_Glenn, but what the martial artists of old wrote down based on the oral tradition of illiterate martial artists before them were trying to explain things in the best way they can with the knowledge that they had. Even in the West 100 years ago, human biomechanics was just not as well understood.

Someone can experience a myriad of feelings occurring during whatever they are doing, that doesn't mean that is what is happening. I love reading CMA classics, and I wish I could read them in Chinese, but the fact is that I read them with a grain of salt and try to read between the lines. They are attempting to best describe what they are experiencing, and from my little understanding and grasp of the Chinese language, many times things are described far more poetically than they ever would be in English especially if they were meant for oral transmission by way of rote memory, much in the same way as Buddhist text often engaged in massive amounts of repetition in order to remember them for chanting, meditation, and oral transmission up until 500 years after the death of Guatama.

I have been doing martial arts for almost 21 years now, which is probably not a long time, but the experienced I get the less I want to read about martial arts and more that I just want to practice, practice, and practice.

The " illiterate martial artists" myth is of no importance in this thread. But for the record to be considered Literate in Chinese you need to know how to identify at least 3000 characters, and more importantly is to also know about 6000 of the 2 and 3 character-combinations which also make up common words.

The Dantian Power and biomechanical movement I'm describing in this thread is something I've been doing myself since 1998. The instructional information doesn't rely upon on any CMA Classics, I am only referencing them to show the link.

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[D_Glenn]

Some more notes about 转换'Zhuanhuan' (turning/rotating the Dantian on it's Vertical Axis). In the classics they use the word 'Yao' (Waist) in place of saying the Lower Dantian, and without getting into the possible reasons why or cultural differences, the important point is that in the West when we here turn the waist, we think of twisting and turning the spine. But want you really want to be turning is the muscles and flesh of your abdomen and turn the direction that your navel is pointing, without any movement of your spinal column. This is part of finding and building up your Dantian. The muscles of the core are capable of fast, explosive movement, but are so close to the blood supply and liver that they can be strengthened by being held under contraction for long periods of time. So in Standing practice, when instructed to 'turn the waist to the side', don't twist at the spine, but try to point your navel to the side. Over time this will develop a Lower Dantian that is more independent of your body. And this small (Inch force) of movement/ degrees of turning, of your Lower Dantian on it's Vertical Axis, will give you the Zhuanhuan power.

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[lazyboxer]

Some more notes about 转换'Zhuanhuan' (turning/rotating the Dantian on it's Vertical Axis). In the classics they use the word 'Yao' (Waist) in place of saying the Lower Dantian, and without getting into the possible reasons why or cultural differences, the important point is that in the West when we here turn the waist, we think of twisting and turning the spine. But want you really want to be turning is the muscles and flesh of your abdomen and turn the direction that your navel is pointing, without any movement of your spinal column. This is part of finding and building up your Dantian. The muscles of the core are capable of fast, explosive movement, but are so close to the blood supply and liver that they can be strengthened by being held under contraction for long periods of time. So in Standing practice, when instructed to 'turn the waist to the side', don't twist at the spine, but try to point your navel to the side. Over time this will develop a Lower Dantian that is more independent of your body. And this small (Inch force) of movement/ degrees of turning, of your Lower Dantian on it's Vertical Axis, will give you the Zhuanhuan power.

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+100, Devlin, this is excellent and can't be emphasised enough. (I've highlighted what I think are your key points). I hope all bagua practitioners here consider your words carefully, for the sake of their health at least. The sacral vertebrae have a very restricted range of movement, so to try to increase it by applying torque is the very last thing we want to be doing, since it leads to muscle strain and impaired blood supply, or worse. Unfortunately that's how many BGZ students were originally taught (myself included, many years ago).

But just rotating the yao (waist) isn't enough by itself; turning is easier and greater when accompanied by the appropriate opening and closing of the kua, the lower root joints, as well as the upper root (shoulder). Can you please elaborate on this point?

[D_Glenn]

There's no problem when talking about, or detailing the precise movement of what's going on from the waist up, as this half of our body is controlled our 'Yi' or 'Yinian'. While the lower half of our body needs to be under the control of our xindi (mind-ground/ ground mind). So the instructions and requirements of the lower half of the body is always left vague and abstract and more importantly is to never practice only stepping drills or exercises where you are only moving the lower half of your body, as you will naturally start using your 'Yi' to control the movement and your 'xindi' will never awaken and gain control of your footwork (bu fa/ tui fa).
Basketball players have good Bu Fa and highly developed Xindi but it's because they always have to be dribbling the ball when they move around the court. Dribbling is being controlled by their Yi, while their stepping is being controlled by their Xindi.
So there's an aversion to really describing in any detail what is going on in the lower half of the body, as the language used can only be the language of our Yi, where our Xindi is more primitive.

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[lazyboxer]

A strange and interesting reply. I think I get it, though I don't know about "vague and abstract"; I'm pretty clear in myself about the qualities I'm looking for in my 'bu fa', though I admit it's hard getting the point across to others.

Main thing is, stepping needs to be natural, conforming to the body's relationship to gravity and the supporting power of the earth, which is at the root of both skill and clumsiness. Hence, I assume, your point about xindi. This could be the start of a whole new thread...