Dantian Power

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Dantian Power

Postby willie on Sat Jan 30, 2016 8:50 am

Just bustin your ass Charles. Good one!
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Re: Dantian Power

Postby Dmitri on Sat Jan 30, 2016 2:48 pm

Charles, how do you reconcile the apparent discord between your spring analogies with the fact that in reality physical body movement isn't really "returning" power but generating it? E.g. with a "leg bow", "unbowing" it doesn't act like a true spring at all, instead it's more like a power source (quads) operating on a system of levers and (sort of) pulleys? Are you just talking in terms of mental imagery, or do you see it as a real mechanical analogy?
Last edited by Dmitri on Sat Jan 30, 2016 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dantian Power

Postby charles on Sat Jan 30, 2016 3:01 pm

Dmitri,

The short answer is that there is some real mechanical analogy, but it only goes so far. As a simple example, if you twist heavily at the waist, "energy" is exerted to keep the waist twisted, If you then stop exerting that effort, the waist un-twists, returning to the neutral, non-effort state. The analogy of that to a clock spring is pretty clear. This is the basis for chan si jin: exert, twist, relax, un-twist back to the neutral state. Obviously, however, humans aren't made of a wound piece of spring steel, so it isn't a one-to-one mapping, nor is it simply mental imagery.
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Re: Dantian Power

Postby D_Glenn on Sat Jan 30, 2016 4:01 pm

willie wrote:
D_Glenn wrote:Again, this quick, jolting movement of the tailbone is really small. The tip of the tailbone only moves about 1 Cun and the curve in the lumbar spine (yaobei) only moves about <1 Cun. Point being that it's difficult to see the movements of the tailbone, sometimes you can see the movement of the Lumbar spine, but what can be observed every time is the 'Crisp, Clear' (脆 Cui) transfer of the power up through the flesh of the torso, arms, and going down into the legs.

Here you can see it in ChenYu's solo 'Fa Li' (Issuing of power), and @ 00:57 you can really get a good glimpse of it-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGRXaYbUCs4




I believe that most of this set is Dantian and not really bow theory, The bows are set up and there, So two powers.
Most of the power set he uses here, I can do. Not as good.

One way is the bow, A single event.
The other a cam, Capable of Multiple events. As I had put in the video.

The question is the meaning of the word MaoDun.

If your Lumbar and thoracic spine are not moving at all then there's no way that you are getting the same power.

Here's a video of Jinbao and watch his lumbar spine changing shape at the end of every strike. He's using 'Zhedie' and 'Zhuanhuan' in every movement, (except in the Snake system which specifically ad intentionally doesn't use Zhedie, it's capable of doing it but creates a different sort of power when it's contained/ held back.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hk3WipJCwHQ



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Re: Dantian Power

Postby D_Glenn on Sat Jan 30, 2016 4:14 pm

littlepanda wrote:
D_Glenn wrote:Bringing Baihui point to the top, bringing the tip of the tongue back to rest in the cavity where the hard palate ends and soft palate starts, relaxing the solar plexus and pericardium, opening mingmen point by pressing out the lumbar, hiding the tailbone and lifting huiyin point, and then holding that position - Bridging the gap at the top and the bottom, gradually fills the Dantian.

Doing all those things in a quick movement quickly empties the Dantian. But gradually you learn to channel the emptying so it surges upward and out to the hand, then channeled back down. Emptying and Filling but nothing is lost.


good info. Thanks

Those requirements are like putting the pot of water over the heat source and putting a lid over the pot to catch the steam.

Quickly doing the Zhedie Jin, where lumbar/ sacrum/ and tailbone abruptly press out and roll under, is using the tailbone like a boot/foot to kick the bottom of the pot of water. It all surges and splashes upward, gradually draining back down into the pot. With a lot of practice, the Zhedie Jin and Dantian becomes like a large syringe connected to tubes and the tailbone quickly presses the piston upward and sends the water up through piping out to the hands, or where ever you want the power to go, then after the strike arrives, the tailbone pulls the piston back down and the water is brought back to the Dantian.

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Re: Dantian Power

Postby willie on Sat Jan 30, 2016 7:51 pm

D_Glenn wrote:
willie wrote:If your Lumbar and thoracic spine are not moving at all then there's no way that you are getting the same power.

Here's a video of Jinbao and watch his lumbar spine changing shape at the end of every strike. He's using 'Zhedie' and 'Zhuanhuan' in every movement, (except in the Snake system which specifically ad intentionally doesn't use Zhedie, it's capable of doing it but creates a different sort of power when it's contained/ held back.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hk3WipJCwHQ



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Hi Glen
He Jinbao definitely looks good. There are strikingly similar techniques in are system. Perhaps he trained with Liu Ping.
anyways I have to work for a living and can not put in as much time as these guys, But I am very satisfied with my instruction
as it is of the highest quality. I even put up video's from time to time and I think that you must admit that the material is quite
martial and not anything like what is usually being shown by Non-Chinese doing taijiquan.
Thanks
Last edited by willie on Sat Jan 30, 2016 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dantian Power

Postby D_Glenn on Sun Jan 31, 2016 6:15 am

I think Liu Ping studied some Bagua with either my grand teacher Xie Peiqi or with his teacher Men Baozhen.

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Re: Dantian Power

Postby willie on Sun Jan 31, 2016 4:05 pm

D_Glenn wrote:I think Liu Ping studied some Bagua with either my grand teacher Xie Peiqi or with his teacher Men Baozhen.

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There is definitely some because my teacher turns the corner after the degree's of freedom reached an end.

Thanks
Last edited by willie on Mon Feb 01, 2016 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dantian Power

Postby D_Glenn on Sun Jan 31, 2016 4:42 pm

I don't really know how they knew each other back in mainland China but Xie Peiqi would often mention him and possibly even visited him around 1996/7.

Zhang Lu Ping - viewtopic.php?f=6&t=237&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

^ http://youtu.be/SVIT9EGWbdQ

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Re: Dantian Power

Postby willie on Sun Jan 31, 2016 5:07 pm

D_Glenn wrote:I don't really know how they knew each other back in mainland China but Xie Peiqi would often mention him and possibly even visited him around 1996/7.

Zhang Lu Ping - viewtopic.php?f=6&t=237&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

^ http://youtu.be/SVIT9EGWbdQ

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that's him.
he was very humble.
I believe he learned from Chen Zhao Kui lineage.
Thanks for the video.
Last edited by willie on Mon Feb 01, 2016 4:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Dantian Power

Postby willie on Sun Jan 31, 2016 10:56 pm

I would like to put this here in honor of this master who died from cancer.
I get to see, learn and feel the power of his style first hand through my teacher who spent a decade doing all private lessons one on one.
I have seen and trained with a lot of martial artist's but I truly have never seen this kind of skill.
Thank you vey much D_Glen for the info.
Master Zhang was from mainland China. He was the Tai Chi champion of Zhejiang Province. Over a 25-year period, he was the student of many famous instructors including:



Cai Hong Xiang: Hua Mountain Kung Fu, Yang Style Tai Chi, Praying Mantis

Accomplishments - five-time national champion of the
mainland in full-contact kung fu.

Wang Zi Ping: Shaolin Kung Fu

Accomplishments - Head of national Kung Fu association. Took part in the Boxer Rebellion.

Xu Jin Ming Nan Quan
Southern Style Kung Fu

Accomplishments - Champion of Southern Style of the mainland.

Sun Ryu Zhi:Wu Style Tai Chi

Accomplishments - Senior student of Wu Jian Chuan
(Wu Style originator)

Xie Bing Chan: Yang Style

Accomplishments - Senior student of Fu Zhong Wen.

Zhang Hai Shen: Hsing-I, Pa kua, Xin I, other Wu style, Sun style.

Accomplishments - second champion of mainland China.

Fang Nan Tang: Shaolin Style, Praying Mantis

Accomplishments - Elder master of Northern and Southern styles.

Dong Xiang Gen: Chen Style Tai Chi

Accomplishments - Senior student of Chen Zhao Kui.(Chen style originator)

Du Wen Cai: Chen Style Tai Chi

Accomplishments - Senior student of Chen Zhao Kui.
Last edited by willie on Mon Feb 01, 2016 1:45 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Dantian Power

Postby littlepanda on Mon Feb 01, 2016 5:33 am



I've noticed that in many chen style taiji, knees moving out-of-line w.r.t. toes is quite common. Won't this lead to loss of stability if not power?
At the same time you don't see this in videos of li chugong and chen yu.

li ghugong
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEP6-AtbB4

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Re: Dantian Power

Postby Bodywork on Mon Feb 01, 2016 10:42 am

littlepanda wrote:


I've noticed that in many chen style taiji, knees moving out-of-line w.r.t. toes is quite common. Won't this lead to loss of stability if not power?
At the same time you don't see this in videos of li chugong and chen yu.

li ghugong
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEP6-AtbB4

.

And you will see it in various Japanese karate systems as well. You will also see it taught as proper movement by a notorious internal coach.
If your goal is to get power up and out....
Then:
*It is anatomically indefensible.
*It is mechanically indefensible.
It's just plain ignorant. And millions do it.
At a mechanical level, the rotation of the hips out of line is even worse than the knees out of line when it comes to a "loss" of power. Using a hip for power, prowing a hip for power, creates lateral loss. However, Using rotational values of the major muscle groupings can create vertical power to inform the hands.
It requires reworking the entire system.
Oddly, it is the main reason for forms and kata. And sadly even those....most of us have now completely fucked up to the point that they aren't worth doing anymore.
I have two international karate organizations changing the way they teach their systems. One of which is eliminating that exact weakness.
Last edited by Bodywork on Mon Feb 01, 2016 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dantian Power

Postby willie on Mon Feb 01, 2016 1:49 pm

I am very impressed with this video, My teachers second teacher in Chen.
https://youtu.be/CSklD1go8Jk
Look at the ability of Chen Zheng lei to really focus with all that " backround noise ".
Last edited by willie on Mon Feb 01, 2016 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dantian Power

Postby D_Glenn on Mon Feb 01, 2016 2:22 pm

littlepanda wrote:I've noticed that in many chen style taiji, knees moving out-of-line w.r.t. toes is quite common. Won't this lead to loss of stability if not power?
At the same time you don't see this in videos of li chugong and chen yu.

Forgive my ignorance but what does " w.r.t. toes" mean?

As for Chen Taiji and the knees, I don't practice it. And these days I can't stand to watch videos of any style of Taijiquan form. I just don't have the patience.

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