Stories about Cheng Man-Ching (CMC) Taijiquan

[allen2saint]

This enterprising gentleman provides some analysis of how CMC really throws down. Thoughts?

I would hardly call this throwing down.

Seen this before while interesting the author of the clip
does not address the space around CMC, as he is doing his movements.

He seems to be addressing only the movement directly.

Everyone's a critic. This is a demo of CMC in action and for what it's worth, it shows him using some very different mechanics than the form.

[windwalker]

This enterprising gentleman provides some analysis of how CMC really throws down. Thoughts?

I would hardly call this throwing down.

Seen this before while interesting the author of the clip
does not address the space around CMC, as he is doing his movements.

He seems to be addressing only the movement directly.

Everyone's a critic. This is a demo of CMC in action and for what it's worth, it shows him using some very different mechanics than the form.

I hope my comment was not taken as such, it was directed at the one who made the clip. I felt his observations where a little short sighed.

Having practiced with a direct student of CMC and also with Ben Lo a long while back I have deep respect for his work.
very much agree that its based on a different idea then the YCF format.

Having practiced dong/tung style for awhile before being introduced to the ZMQ style, I found them to be very different.
What I practice now is also quite different then the ZMQ style, but less so then between the Tung style and it.

[allen2saint]

My impression is CMC's skills were really more of his own personal acheivement which he had no intention of sharing. I'm not sure he was even capable of teaching what he knew to others, now that I think of it. I don't mean that as an insult to anyone. Just a theory.

[willywrong]

I have heard the story of chengs other teacher but I think the reason he denied it was so he could give yang full respect

that makes sense.

On a comment by a CMC student. The student said that CMC used the older way of doing form with back more straight 90 degrees cause that was what "others were doing" at the Yang school back in the day and to look at the old push hands photos as evidence. Like this: the guy on left (perhaps Yang Sau ching, son of YCF?)

I'm not quite sure how you see that making sense when the guy with his back straight is retreating at his next move in that direction would be to come up on his right heel and his right heel retreat rearward.

for example we see Yang here with the slight lean forward vs. CMC straight back:

Now this one is with both their stances forward and I think this is what is being referred to with leaning as opposed to an upright position. Although it appears that CMC is double weighted he is not. He is actually if he was moving releasing his back knee which is the first movement one makes when sitting back. This releases the backward space allowing the energy to flow in that direction. Most people in my experience don't do this which leads to sitting across and not truly back. They compensate for this error in my opinion in all sorts of marvellous ways.

[willywrong]

This enterprising gentleman provides some analysis of how CMC really throws down. Thoughts?

First he takes him up, then down and then draws him towards himself. As Tam Gibbs loses it slightly forward he gives a slight pull on CMC hand/wrist as he lets go. He still continues with those hands towards CMC as CMC borrows his force and moved towards Tam's body. Being inside Tam's space and having acquired the borrowed force his fist really fast with his own and Tam's energy. His explosive movement backwards is to disperse (cause to separate and go in different directions) the energy.
I could see this quite clearly when I watch this without the clip been slowed/paused but without the clip being dealt with in this way I would never have bothered to try and explain this to people on the forum and I'm still not quite sure that very many of you will actually get it. For those of you that might doubt this I suggest you go and watch me doing this to Daren Cox on tennytigers site. Also some of the WC guys on this site will recognise this technique.

[willywrong]

This enterprising gentleman provides some analysis of how CMC really throws down. Thoughts?

I would hardly call this throwing down.

Seen this before while interesting the author of the clip
does not address the space around CMC, as he is doing his movements.

He seems to be addressing only the movement directly.

just wanted to point out that that is a very low quality video
in a better version you can see that he strikes the guy 3 times

...

If you're correct then I would have to change my opinion of him disperseing the energy and say that he is tactically distancing himself in his last movement.

[wiesiek]

thx for the story,
I would ask - who trained both- 81 and hidden one,
what really was passed?

[willywrong]

thx for the story,
I would ask - who trained both- 81 and hidden one,
what really was passed?

I have no idea what the fuck your question or your reference to both 81 and hidden one.

[wiesiek]

forms
81 moves, - officially official, and the real shit no fuck...
myy reference are 0, to both forms,
so
I`m askin`, what the fuck is hidden
advantage in fuckin`?
or what?
for fuck dough, I don`t need one ,/referencing experiencing/.
then
it should be clear that I asked about MA advantage in reference to training 1st only, or both...
or shortly:
what the fuck difference if you train one two or three?

/you know, if you have two forms there are 3 possibility to go/

[D_Glenn]

Stories

Gabrial Chin has a good story about CMC. Fu Zhongwen has a good story about pushing hands with CMC. Chen Weiming has a good story, etc.

.

[wiesiek]

good story always appreciated

[wayne hansen]

So what are the stories?

[willywrong]

forms
81 moves, - officially official, and the real shit no fuck...
myy reference are 0, to both forms,
so
I`m askin`, what the fuck is hidden
advantage in fuckin`?
or what?
for fuck dough, I don`t need one ,/referencing experiencing/.
then
it should be clear that I asked about MA advantage in reference to training 1st only, or both...
or shortly:
what the fuck difference if you train one two or three?

/you know, if you have two forms there are 3 possibility to go/

Excuse me for being so slow but how about you write in a language that someone as slow as me can understand (English).

[seven]

I am impressed by the longevity of Cheng Man-Ching's students: T T Liang died at 102. Robert W Smith died at 95, William C C Chen is still going strong at 80...

[Ba-men]

Why not call a spade a spade?

Why not tell it like it was or is...?

Why not point to the most plausible answer (s).....?

One of the biggest problems in IMA is people ignore the obvious and chase shadows... then get laughed at in the end because they look the fool in the eyes of most other MA practitioners.. (usually because they grossly lack skills, wasting precious time chasing the unattainable ...e.g like attaching and adhering to a punch, or specializing in PH thinking that's the secret to martial prowess...)

I) Judging by CMC poor shenfa captured on film...
II) Judging by his lack of knowledge of the actual martial applications of the YCF form ... in his book, by his own words...
III) His bodacious altering/shorting the form (the obvious answer as to why??? he didn't have a clue what many of the movements were used for... again demonstrated in his own book!... why else would he deviate when none of the other disciples did?)
IV) HIS grounding in PH and not actual fighting...

The plausible was CMC was the least qualified of any of YCF disciples...

Another Note: It's also plausible that (in this day and age!!! ) if your looking at the video thinking its anything other than pure UN-adulterated Crap your as big a Noob to MA as the idiot who posted the video in the first place!

Nothing concerning CMC is as it appears to be.. his fighting rep in Taiwan or his skills written/hyped about by Smith... CMC wasn't even close to being in the same league with other IMA notables in Taiwan: Examples: Wang shu jin, Hung I Hsiang, his teacher Chang Chun-Feng, Paul Kuo, Chen Pan Ling, etc all those guys who where written about by Smith were grounded in the martial. (Note: few had much to do with Smith being from the west.. (in fact Smith got his arm broke by a skilled Bagua master (I forget his name) trying to get poky... never did go back him. yet gravitates to CMC because his skill is real?.... as what? We see what skills he has in the few videos he left.

So once again... I'll ask

Why not point to the most plausible answer (s).....?

Then you can move on... and use the benefit of living in the information age to pursue "skills with purpose", instead of philosophizing about "how many angles can take a crap on the head of a pin"