Glove Myth

[Pandrews1982]

My experience with gloves is that it changes the shape of the fist I would normally make for xing yi practice and thus I have to change my striking dynamics in order to compensate and as such end up with reduced striking power. Also in striking with the glove the initial impact of the bare handed strike is reduced making it more difficult (at least IME) to break the opponent's connection/root to the ground.

Larger gloves also tend to slow down the hands (especially if you aren't used to using them) and are larger targets to defend against making clean strikes less likely. Also boxing gloves often prevent the use of effective grabbing which reduces the ability to grapple.

As such I believe gloves can significantly hamper your usual ability, however they do not eliminate it. If you are already well versed in sparring/fighting then putting on some gloves might make you less effective than usual but you should not be completely useless.

I think that there is a place for gloves and protective gear, it allows some people the perceived safety net which allows them to pluck up the courage to participate in free fighting or more non-compliant sparring, but I believe the majority of training should be done bareknuckle with contact.

I try to use kempo gloves (sometimes called Bruce Lee Gloves) as they provide ample padding but maintain finger movement. They still restrict my fist shape but they also have a heavy wrist protection which helps somewhat in remedying the different hand position I have to make.

I have tried the open finger MMA gloves but they are practically useless for me. The hand position we use in my system of xing yi strikes with the second knuckles of the hand rather than the flat of the fingers or first knuckles at the base of the fingers, as such my striking knuckles are not covered by any padding when using MMA gloves and therefore I might as well not be using gloves at all.

[chud]

My experience with gloves is that it changes the shape of the fist I would normally make for xing yi practice and thus I have to change my striking dynamics in order to compensate and as such end up with reduced striking power. Also in striking with the glove the initial impact of the bare handed strike is reduced making it more difficult (at least IME) to break the opponent's connection/root to the ground.

Larger gloves also tend to slow down the hands (especially if you aren't used to using them) and are larger targets to defend against making clean strikes less likely. ...

Well said, that is what I was referring to in my original post, but you said it better.

[middleway]

My experience with gloves is that it changes the shape of the fist I would normally make for xing yi practice and thus I have to change my striking dynamics in order to compensate and as such end up with reduced striking power. Also in striking with the glove the initial impact of the bare handed strike is reduced making it more difficult (at least IME) to break the opponent's connection/root to the ground.

Larger gloves also tend to slow down the hands (especially if you aren't used to using them) and are larger targets to defend against making clean strikes less likely. ...

but why does that matter when sparring for instance. The aim of sparring surely isnt to exhibit maximum striking force on your training partner?

All of those points actually, IMO, are great selling points for training with gloves! If you can train with gloves, develop high speed, break someone root/connection with the ground, and exhibit high force ... when you take them off wont the bare knuckle method be increased dramatically?

just some thoughts.
chris

[DeusTrismegistus]

My experience with gloves is that it changes the shape of the fist I would normally make for xing yi practice and thus I have to change my striking dynamics in order to compensate and as such end up with reduced striking power. Also in striking with the glove the initial impact of the bare handed strike is reduced making it more difficult (at least IME) to break the opponent's connection/root to the ground.

Larger gloves also tend to slow down the hands (especially if you aren't used to using them) and are larger targets to defend against making clean strikes less likely. ...

but why does that matter when sparring for instance. The aim of sparring surely isnt to exhibit maximum striking force on your training partner?

All of those points actually, IMO, are great selling points for training with gloves! If you can train with gloves, develop high speed, break someone root/connection with the ground, and exhibit high force ... when you take them off wont the bare knuckle method be increased dramatically?

just some thoughts.
chris

I remember reading somewhere that any change in weight on the hand exceeding 4 ounces actually changes the biomechanics of punching. So in reality wearing heavy gloves actually changes the way you strike. It makes sense that the body would adapt to be effective with the extra weight. This is one reason I prefer mma gloves. Big gloves also remove palm strikes, grasping and grabbing techniques, knife hands, and I am sure a few more techniques. I also don't like how big they make the hands. Even joe rogan has commented during mma bouts that you can't block the same way with big gloves as without and it be as effective. It also makes it more difficult to get clean shots in tight spaces.

IMO 4 oz gloves, head gear, and body protection are the way to go if you want to spar heavy. There is no reason to use big heavy gloves unless you are training for a competition format that uses big heavy gloves.

[Ron Panunto]

I don't use gloves much because I think it trains you to use closed fist attacks rather than open hand attacks. Without the gloves you are very likely to break your knuckles (I have) or your wrist (many boxers do). Most of the IMA's prefer open hand attacks, finger jabs, slaps, chops, pressure point attacks and grabs which can't be done well with gloves.

[windwalker]

but why does that matter when sparring for instance. The aim of sparring surely isnt to exhibit maximum striking force on your training partner?

is it?

there is a science behind using gloves, and the glove weight.
No one here even talked about hand wrapping which is also part of using gloves.

As a boxer enters the professional ranks, the gloves he wears during competition decrease in size. Most amateur boxers have not yet reached the point of full physical maturity. Amateurs wear larger gloves as a precaution to prevent younger bodies and minds from suffering trauma. In professional boxing, fighters in the heavier divisions compete in only 10-oz. gloves. This rule generally applies for any boxer who weighs more than 147 lbs.

Professional boxers who competes in any class up to and including the welterweight division wear 8-oz. gloves during a match. The lowest weight category in professional boxing is 105 lbs., which is called mini-flyweight, straw weight or minimum weight. Fighters in these categories are usually much faster than their heavier counterparts. The smaller gloves allow a boxer to strike and respond with increased speed.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/49901 ... ng-gloves/

for 4 oz gloves.

Most professional fights have the fighters wear 4 ounce (110 g) gloves, whereas amateurs may wear a slightly heavier 6 ounce (170 g) glove for increased protection.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMA_gloves

The impact of gloves on the injuries caused during a fight is a controversial issue, mostly looked at in relation to boxing. Studies have shown that use of large 'boxing style' gloves fights cause more severe and more long-term brain and eye injuries than bare-knuckle fights,[1][2] although the incidence of superficial injuries (cuts, bruising) is reduced.

In part, this can also be attributed to more, shorter rounds in modern fights made possible by the use of gloves, which results in longer fights than earlier and that boxers punch harder while wearing gloves.

boxers punch harder while wearing gloves.

makes sense,
hitting harder more protection needed for the hand.

There is no reason to use big heavy gloves unless you are training for a competition format that uses big heavy gloves.

its a progression to smaller lighter gloves.
Gloves allow one to train to hit and get hit with out getting damaged so much in the process.

I LOVE boxing gloves. Not only do they protect the hands and your opponent fairly uniformly (all sides of the hand), but they allow you to go wild and not worry about injury too much. I also love the head guard that we use with a plastic face cover. It's not perfect, but when none of us have to worry about permanent injury, we can experiment and test things out in a semi-realistic way.

We also do light sparring with garden-like gloves (just enough to prevent eye gauges with the nails) and slightly harder if we use a head guard. It's a good combination of training methods.

this is seems backwards from the way boxers would train. Heaver gloves used to train getting hit, and hitting, smaller ones used after one develops the timing and understanding needed how not to get hit.

[wayne hansen]

Same brain damage possibly more with headgear

[Bao]

Good thread and Interesting read. Sums up the pros and cons quite well.

I remember reading somewhere that any change in weight on the hand exceeding 4 ounces actually changes the biomechanics of punching. So in reality wearing heavy gloves actually changes the way you strike. It makes sense that the body would adapt to be effective with the extra weight.

But you don't wear gloves all of the time. I would rather think about it as developing a new punching technique. It's like holding some weight or brass knuckles as you strike. Nothing wrong learning something new.

I would rather see the gloves and headgear as a tool to for beginners to develop some basic fighting skills, as learning how to take strikes (you can still take it easy, you don't need to knock each other). And the feeling of being protected (even if it can be even more dangerous) often makes a beginner more courageous, more willing to attack and get close the opponent's striking fists.

And sure, putting on gloves limits your tool box, but I can't see anything bad in practicing fighting with limitations. In fact, I question if it's very limiting. You might to be able to do more than you thing with gloves on. And BTW, Tai Chi folks always speak about doing things without gripping. Well, here you have it. Or some of it at least:

[JessOBrien]

Just my 2 cents. 16 ounch boxing gloves are great for Xing Yi or Ba Gua sparring. You don't get the grab but otherwise it's awesome. You don't have to worry about hurting people like bareknuckle when you have to always be holding back. With 16 oz gloves you finally get to cut loose a little bit. Great for sparring training.

[Steve James]

Fwiw, there is little evidence to suggest that headgear (including football helmets) reduce, let alone prevent, concussions. Developing stronger neck muscles, imo, would work better. However, when the head is hit hard enough to make it move, physics takes over. The only way to prevent head injuries is to prevent head impact. So, the problem is sparring too early, or before one has the ability to defend oneself. Ime, every (western) boxer expects to get hit; but there are few who can make their living by taking head shots. Usually, it's exactly the opposite, and it's the other guy eating the punches. Of course, the pro boxer has to eat some punches, and then there's pride and the audience's desire to see blood.

Outside the amateurs, it's generally the "sparring partners" who wear head gear. Some people consider them cannon fodder, actually. Anyway, in the amateurs, bouts are stopped if the ref feels that there's been too many head shots, or that there might be too many. If boxing rules were managed so that one hit would cause the bout to stop while a point was awarded, (as in fencing, etc), there would be less chance of injury. That won't happen, though. People like to watch boxing because of the potential for knockouts (i.e., concussions).

Oh, yeah, a knockout involves a concussion; the problem is that a concussion doesn't require a knockout. So, fwiw, if you've been knocked out by a blow, you've probably been concussed, and your brain has been injured. If you've knocked someone out, you've given them a brain injury. Do it enough, and the cumulative results will show. If you've ever met a punch drunk fighter, you know what I mean.

Anyway, ideally, the best way to protect against a knockout (or head shot) is to hit the other guy first and harder. The second way is to develop an excellent defense so that you can avoid getting hit. (This might be harder to do while wearing headgear). Third is to prepare to accept hits; strengthening the neck is very direct, but guys with massive necks will eventually get knocked out too.

It's true that gloves are meant to protect the hands. But, there's also a reason that boxers also use hand wraps --that make it difficult to use the hand in the same way they would without the gloves and wraps. Afa the advantage or disadvantage, I don't think that a good boxer is at a disadvantage because his hands are free. If he hits you in the jaw, temple, etc., you'll probably go down. He might hurt his hand. He might not care, either. I'm sure ya'll have watched the youtubes of the older boxer schooling the younger one. Note how easy it wasn't for the younger guy to hit him And, then there was the cool guy in the red pants ("Champ", they called him, iinm) who knocked out the guy who was messing with him. Learning with gloves is no disadvantage, if you learn.

[bruce]

full contact probably has different definitions for different people.

in my opinion there is no sensible reason to ever spar "full" contact and "full" power with or without protective gear.
too much chance for unnecessary injury in my opinion.

i think you need "solid" power in sparring not "full" power.

people make a lot of excuses about why something did not work. if they make excuses likely they are full of shit.

light striking sparring with gloves is fine and offers less chance for injury while still allowing solid contact.

[GrahamB]

I think it depends on the headgear - I tried on one helmet thing once that seemed to make the concussive effect of a head strike worse than not wearing it at all.

[MaartenSFS]

Some great replies in there, to be sure..

Some points I'd like to make:

* I agree with Bao that it's a different way of sparring/punching.

* I don't agree that you can't do palm or ridge attacks with the gloves on. I can and do. The only things that don't work with gloves are things that shouldn't be done at that intensity regardless.

* I like the head guard because it protects the face. The rest of the head is just extra. It makes zero sense to me that an extra two layers between your hard hand and their somewhat fragile head would not make a difference.. Sure, you might hit harder, but it's more realistic. I don't know about you, but I enjoy my nose, eyes, etc...

*As I said, we do non-glove work with and without head guards. Each way is different and good in its own way. With some people you just can't do it that way because they lack control. Nowadays I can spar with my master without any equipment and walk away without getting banged up too bad because we both exercise control. That ability didn't just come from nowhere. It's still a far cry from putting on equipment and beating the hell out of each other, though. I really can't see how anyone can gain skills that transfer to fighting at such low intensities. If you are going at it full contact without equipment I think that's just silly, unless you are training to be a Ninja.

*My master has no problem grabbing me and using Qinna with gloves on. The man's got an iron grip and the glove doesn't hinder him much. The only problem is that it's slightly less easy in super close quarters where the gloves can get caught up or "tangled", but I seem to be way more bothered by it than him.

That's all for now - got to run.

*Oh, and whoever said that it limits the force is just not someone I'd want to spar with. I want my sparring partners to come back for more..

[middleway]

*Oh, and whoever said that it limits the force is just not someone I'd want to spar with. I want my sparring partners to come back for more..

+1

but why does that matter when sparring for instance. The aim of sparring surely isnt to exhibit maximum striking force on your training partner?

is it?

WW i think you misread. Highlighted to make clear.

thanks.

[windwalker]

*Oh, and whoever said that it limits the force is just not someone I'd want to spar with. I want my sparring partners to come back for more..

+1

but why does that matter when sparring for instance. The aim of sparring surely isnt to exhibit maximum striking force on your training partner?

is it?

WW i think you misread. Highlighted to make clear.

thanks.

yep, I can see it now...your right I did misread it.

The OP didnt mention mouth guards
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouthguard

another good protective device to use and have depending on level and type of practice.