Is Wing Chun completely useless in an MMA setting?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Is Wing Chun completely useless in an MMA setting?

Postby windwalker on Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:40 am

They don't have the aspect of wude (martial ethics武德). No respect. A student learns halfway somewhere and then they start changing. They make their own style. That's why we end up with so many new styles.

"Are they really making anything that much different compared to other old styles? Maybe not. Kung fu, after all, is just two hands, two feet and the body. That's it. Different styles specialize on different techniques and usually these people don't pick them up.

They don't know how to use them. For example, tongbei is different than regular kung fu. It's the way they use the power, the way they deliver momentum and striking force. That's what makes it outstanding. I don't say that these new styles are bad kung fu or anything like that. I always say 'Whatever you do, I don't want. Whatever I do and you don't know - that's how we win.'"

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/ ... rticle=661

From an interview with David Chin.

I always say 'Whatever you do, I don't want. Whatever I do and you don't know - that's how we win.


From this perspective its the uniqueness of the style or system that one uses that provides the advantage.
In recent threads on aiki, or as the styles showcased on this site, its the inner methods that are thought to give one the advantage.

In the interview he goes on to say that many people never really test their art to the depth needed to make it live, nor gain the real skill sets they'er noted for.
Lots of talk about looking outside the box ect. IME, what we did was to find the answers to questions within the context of what ever was trained.
It becomes a matter of level, not really having a good understanding of ones own level in relationship to others.


IMO, most the problem is one of testing and format. Some thinking feel that their normal training prepares them for the ring, big mistake :-\

MMA starts out in the ring using it, and the format it operates in.
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Apr 23, 2015 7:02 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Is Wing Chun completely useless in an MMA setting?

Postby dspyrido on Thu Apr 23, 2015 3:32 pm

A few decades ago I trained in MT. It was great but when I came across WC it provided an opportunity to train in techniques I did not do in MT like kicks to shins and knees, variations on wrist and elbow locks, sticking hands/legs, weapons and what it is to fight gloveless. We even practised ground work which did not exist in mt.

Under both mt and wc I competed.

Roll forward a decade and the wc school started to slow the learning, political fallouts with senior students, competing disappeared and sparing still existed but many of the practitioners went "internal" & that was nerfed.

So is wc good or bad or has it something to do with who runs it, the students who get together, how open minded they are, how happy they are test and adapt, how hard and smart they train etc. Just because we lump things in a brand for simplicity does not equate to reality.

Btw this pattern of errosion is not wc specific. It has happened to other styles and is happening today with other martial brands. Even many so called mma schools are training more like boxercise classes because students want the perception of ability without the pain and instructors still need to pay for bills.

Anyway I still use things in an mma format that I picked up or refined when I trained wc.
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Re: Is Wing Chun completely useless in an MMA setting?

Postby Bill on Thu Apr 23, 2015 3:48 pm

I used to know a student of Gary Lam and Mr. Lam is all fight all the time. From him I learned that wing-chun can develope good fighters.
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Re: Is Wing Chun completely useless in an MMA setting?

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Apr 23, 2015 7:37 pm

What Dspyrido said..
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Re: Is Wing Chun completely useless in an MMA setting?

Postby Ian on Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:00 am

In Muay Thai hand traps gain more importance each year. Muangthai PK Saenchai, 2014's Fighter of the Year, looks nothing like a kickboxer—instead stepping in with his hands over his opponents and landing knees.


Hand fighting is standard muay thai, so if anything, Muangthai PK Saenchai and so many other champs are proving that muay thai works...







Superficially it's the same as wing chun trapping... in that your arms touch the opponent's arms... but the training methods, biomechanics, techniques, tactics and mentality are different. Ask anyone who has trained both.

Another rudimentary mistake is the Weidman vs. Machida example. Does wing chun advocate grabbing and holding onto the hands? Or does that come from Weidman's freestyle and greco, Machida's bjj and muay thai, and their combined experience in mma? So again, does this prove that wing chun might work in mma, or that Machida's and Weidman's training works?

I'm a fan of good wing chun, and believe that with modification it could be integrated into an mma fighter's game, but not for the overly simplified reasons given in the article, i.e. 'occupy the center' and 'trapping is probably a good idea'.
Last edited by Ian on Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:27 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Is Wing Chun completely useless in an MMA setting?

Postby Eric_H on Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:11 am

Bill wrote:I used to know a student of Gary Lam and Mr. Lam is all fight all the time. From him I learned that wing-chun can develope good fighters.


That's a tough one, cause for a while he was producing some really great guys. Then a number of his seniors left, and that thing in europe happened, and now he's kind of disappeared.
http://www.hungfakwoon.com/ - Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Global HQ.
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Re: Is Wing Chun completely useless in an MMA setting?

Postby GrahamB on Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:48 am

Did the thing in Europe involve women and wine? Because if not I am disappoint.
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Re: Is Wing Chun completely useless in an MMA setting?

Postby jim on Mon Apr 27, 2015 3:58 am

Ian wrote:Graham, I think you've misunderstood. If a wing chun guy wanted to train regularly in an MMA format, he'd improve a lot faster, and gain a deeper understanding of his style. If an MMA guy borrowed from wing chun to add to his arsenal, that'd be cool too. I'm all for it.



This reminds me of a boxer I knew some 10 years or so ago. He LOVED wing chun. I remember clearly, him saying "It (WC) seems like it was designed by a genius then given to monkeys to use". He only learned SLT but claimed the concepts it taught him helped him tremendously to be a better boxer. His main argument though was the concepts would be hard to see/understand unless you already knew how to fight with contact, and the people he trained with didn't know how to fight with contact (against non wing chun people).
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Re: Is Wing Chun completely useless in an MMA setting?

Postby Spncr on Mon Apr 27, 2015 10:48 am

jim wrote:"It (WC) seems like it was designed by a genius then given to monkeys to use"


Lol, unfortunately, I think you could say that about a great many things.
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Re: Is Wing Chun completely useless in an MMA setting?

Postby jim on Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:27 am

Spncr wrote:
jim wrote:"It (WC) seems like it was designed by a genius then given to monkeys to use"


Lol, unfortunately, I think you could say that about a great many things.


ha! true enough.
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Re: Is Wing Chun completely useless in an MMA setting?

Postby Rabbit on Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:23 am

MMA guy would proberly still be much better of in an allyway or crowded street ...

Excellent a clinch
Good under pressure
Better at taking strikes and staying focussed
Good elbow and use of head
Fitter
Excellent striking 'in the pocket'
could still use take down
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Re: Is Wing Chun completely useless in an MMA setting?

Postby jim on Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:00 am

I agree with Rabbit.

And this isn't a knock on the WC people because I find it a very interesting system, but how often do fights in extremely tight small enclosed spaces happen?

I've seen my share of fights both live and online, and most of them have been outside in the open. If I'm in such an enclosed space, I think good wrestling would be highly effective.

I've seen wing chun work really nicely in an open space - I don't know why it so often has to come down to "if we get into a fight in an alley/telephone booth/elevator..."
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Re: Is Wing Chun completely useless in an MMA setting?

Postby dspyrido on Tue Apr 28, 2015 3:54 pm

Rabbit wrote:MMA guy would proberly still be much better of in an allyway or crowded street ...

Excellent a clinch
Good under pressure
Better at taking strikes and staying focussed
Good elbow and use of head
Fitter
Excellent striking 'in the pocket'
could still use take down


The style is far less relevant to the instructor, training partners and openess to testing.

I've been to mma schools that don't enforce sparing except for competitors. They also dont tend to enforce good technique in an effort to appeal to fitness. Not the instructors issue - many students just want to look pretty. So they dont hit hard, dont clinch well, dont throw well, spend time on the ground thinking thats real life, yet build confidence that they are doing something that will work in reality.

A good experienced coach will solve this regardless of the style but needs an eager student put the effort in.
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Re: Is Wing Chun completely useless in an MMA setting?

Postby dspyrido on Tue Apr 28, 2015 4:07 pm

jim wrote:And this isn't a knock on the WC people because I find it a very interesting system, but how often do fights in extremely tight small enclosed spaces happen?


In my younger days I had bar situations where the last thing I wanted to do is wrestle and it would have been suicide to go to the ground. There is a lot of poetry in motion found in wc when someone grabs you by the head in a surprise attack and throws a king hit yet ends up pulling your fist into his face and effectively ends the fight the second they started it.

I advocate wc has a sweet spot range that tends to sit between boxing and wrestling which can be a definite edge. The problem is when wc guys refuse to adapt to the longer and shorter ranges. Some do and seeking out better guys is recommended.
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Re: Is Wing Chun completely useless in an MMA setting?

Postby Spncr on Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:21 pm

The problem is when wc guys refuse to adapt to the longer and shorter ranges. Some do and seeking out better guys is recommended.


Basically agree with your points there dspyrido. I won't dispute that WC/VT can be utilized best at the "sweet spot range" as you refer to it. However IMO its not that WC practitioners need to adapt to longer and shorter ranges, so much as it is that most WC practitioners tend not to understand WC at those ranges.
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