Fa-jin w/foot stomping

[Ba-men]

Who here has been doing TCMA for about 25+ years and has a form where one stomps when fa-jin? (during certain movements.. applications)
I now tend to get plantar fasciitis rather easily... (I wonder if 25+ yrs of doing that has anything to do with it?)


Anyone having the same trouble in there late 40's early 50's with the same background??

[mrtoes]

Not that old but when I started hsing i I was taught to drop the weight heavily (stomp) when doing beng chuan and it inflamed my achilles tendon and gave me stiff ankles. I now no longer use this method for generating power and the problem has gone away (and I hit harder which is a nice bonus)

Of course, we might be referring to different things.

Matthew

[kenneth fish]

At the risk of sounding like captain bring-down, that is the result of dropping your weight into the stomp - which is wrong. The stomp should be sharp, percussive, but without a weight drop - properly done someone standing 5 to 10 feet away should feel the percussion through the ground in their feet.

[Michael Babin]

I learned the rudiments of xingyi [five elements] from an expert who stamped and practising outside with him you could feel the vibrations in the ground when he did so. I spent some time trying to do the same thing inside on a concrete floor and eventually ended up with the kind of foot problems described above. Exercise therapy and "special" insoles though it was a trial for many months.

Twnety-five years later I still practise some xingyi linking sets and don't stamp anymore unless the move is meant to be a stamping action as in "crush the instep". I also tend to agree with experts I have met like Tim Cartmell who say that stamping when doing the elements is a mis-application of the forces generated by the five elements.

[dspyrido]

I dont recommend foot stomping where the entire mass is launched into the ground like someone is trying to stamp uncontrollably (like trying to kick the ground). It can lead to damage. The same also can happen from lunging like in a long jab or fencing. Over time the uncontrolled launch for speed or power damages the heel.

The proper form that has worked for me is - the toes pull back, the heel skims slightly above the groud, the foot is placed heel first and the mass transfers with a push pull from both legs. On pressing the toes grip (visualising talons). It might look the same but the name of the game is controlling the movement, removing big tension in the legs and coordination. I've repeated this tens of thousands of times and so far no injury. I also can do this dropping the center of gravity but that needs control as it can lead to knee pressure if you dont do it right.

[wayne hansen]

40 years no problem
The source might lie elsewhere
Incorrect alignment tension further up
Or an unconnected problem like driving
Is it right or left foot or both

[Andy_S]

What Ken said re not dropping the weight.

In Chen Taiji, the foot stomp is like breaking ice on the surface of a pond: You want to crack the ice without falling into the hole you make.

I recall meeting Chen Xiaowang in around 1997 at a seminar held in a huge gym in the UK that had a solid wooden floor. When he did his fajing, the room vibrated. Pretty remarkable.

[blank]

Began baji in 1980 at age 30, stomped like a mofo for twenty years . No lingering foot problems. Don't be stupid though, like I was, by practicing on cement or asphalt.
To stomp without weighting or sinking into the leg is a wasted action; it's required for a kind of compression. Otherwise, it's an ornamental sound effect.

[Andy_S]

SNIP
To stomp without weighting or sinking into the leg is a wasted action
SNIP

Interesting opinion, but (at least in terms of Chen Taiji) wrong. Note the heads of masters when they stamp: Their heads don't drop.

Apply this principle to punching. Sure you can throw a heavy" punch that goes through the target, but you can also throw a short, sharp, snap punch that retracts immediately.

[kenneth fish]

The first time I met Zhong Fusheng, the Eagle Claw master, was on the rooftop training area of my teacher's school. Master Zhong, standing in a mid-height cat stance, struck the floor with his unweighted leg. You could feel it through your feet about 5 feet away - it was like striking a drum.

[Ba-men]

How about the knees? That too seems to be bothering me. I'm thinking it might genetics, or my work. I work on concrete all day long. Seems the last year or so they have really flared up.

It's my opinion that the modern environment we live in is sometimes not conducive to the old practices we do.

[mrtoes]

Or maybe we just haven't been training correctly. The distinction about not dropping the weight that Dr Fish and Andy highlighted (thanks I appreciate the feedback) was not clarified to me. I'm going to go back and revisit some of those movements with that in mind - it should fit with the way I'm training to use the kua/legs at the moment.

[Bodywork]

Who ever stated it, good call on noticing the head not dropping, BTW.

How would you stomp without dropping the weight?
Why would you stomp without dropping the weight?
How do you punch without hip rotation and transfering weight?
Why punch without hip rotation and throwing the weight?
How is foot stomping related to fajing? Related to punching? Related to kicking?
When you see a taiji teacher spring his leg out and shake his body-without dropping his head...what is he doing? How is that related to the discussion?
What...in your body could produce that unnatural power-without dropping the weight?

The answers are all to be found in the arts and actually stated -and many times shown- by teachers (just like I said in the kua thread and then the references suddenly appeared).
These are sound and defensible mechanics at play in an unusual way.
So, since these things are supposedly taught, the real question is; why don't more people know the answers?

[roger hao]

Do it on the elevator - it should bounce - when you reach high level the cables will snap and there is no more to learn.

[shawnsegler]

I was taught long ago not to drop the full body weight into a stomp on the right side while it was ok on the left. Something to do with the way the force rebounded into the left side of the torso/heart area. Curious if anyone else has info on this.

Best,

S